1 min read

Sales Therapy, Part II: The Art + Science of a Powerful Sales Process with Chris Stilwell (HubHeroes, Ep. 67)

what does a great sales process look like

 

We're back with another powerful installment of some highly cathartic, ridiculously eye-opening, and wholly actionable sales therapy with our pal, Chris Stilwell founder and head coach of TSSG, a sales training and technology partner for motivated sales teams with great products and services.

Definitely go check out our last conversation with Chris about how buying has changed, but somehow, sales still hasn't. We left no stone unturned in our conversation about why most sales teams are struggling, how great sales reps are like peak-performing athletes, and why there's a good reason many sales folks are don't trust their marketing counterparts.

This week, we're digging deeper with a focused conversation about the sales process — what a great sales process looks like, what it doesn't look like, and why it can be so hard for even the most well-intentioned organizations to get it right.

What We Talked About

  • Why is having a clear, consistent, sales process that's followed by all so hard to attain for most sales teams?

  • What does a great sales process NOT look like?

  • What does a great sales process look like?

  • How does social selling fit into the sales process?

  • How can sales reps bring their own personality or unique flavor of selling into a structured sales process?

  • What are the most common mistakes sales orgs make when trying to implement a new sales process?

  • What are the most common OUTDATED sales tactics you still see teams trying to use today? Why don't they work anymore?

  • What are the most essential mindsets and soft skills great sales reps need to possess today to win?

And so much more ... 

Additional Resources

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🤔  Why is having a clear, consistent, sales process that's followed by all so hard to attain for most sales teams? And what does a great sales process actually look like?

Find out on this week's episode of #HubHeroes, with special guest Chris Stilwell of TSSG:

https://hubheroes.co/3tNzXnD 

#salesenablement #salesprocess #b2bsales #sellingtips #salesstrategy #hubspotforsales

💥  What does a great sales process actually look like, and what doesn't it look like?

💥  What are the most common mistakes sales orgs make when trying to implement a new sales process?

💥  What are the most essential mindsets and soft skills great sales reps need to possess today to win?

Find out on this week's episode of #HubHeroes, with special guest Chris Stilwell of TSSG:

https://hubheroes.co/3tNzXnD 

#salesenablement #salesprocess #b2bsales #sellingtips #salesstrategy #hubspotforsales

😱 "The problem with most sales processes is that they're so focused on the product that sales reps don't actually have a conversation with a customer."

What can you do to supercharge your sales process in 2024? Find out on this week's episode of #HubHeroes, with special guest Chris Stilwell of TSSG:

https://hubheroes.co/3tNzXnD 

#salesenablement #salesprocess #b2bsales #sellingtips #salesstrategy #hubspotforsales

Meet your HubHeroes

Liz Murphy

HH-LM-300

Agency vet, content therapist, messaging strategist, HubHero wrangler.

Devyn Bellamy

HH-DB-300

HubSpotter, partner enabler, strategy wizard, BLACK@INBOUND.

Max Cohen

HH-MJC-300

HubSpotter, senior solutions engineer, CRM evangelist, a millennial on TikTok.

George B. Thomas

HH-GBT-300

HubHeroes leader, growth catalyst, guardian of humans, HubSpot expert.

[00:00:00] George B. Thomas: Heh

[00:00:00] Liz Moorehead: And that's it. You did it again, George. This is the second week in a row you've done this to me, and I am not ready. Why do you do this?

[00:00:09] George B. Thomas: I promise next week I'll play it the full way. Devin, you know what that meant. It meant that I

[00:00:16] Devyn Bellamy: Yeah, I know. I know.

[00:00:17] George B. Thomas: for Max

[00:00:18] Devyn Bellamy: I already know

[00:00:19] George B. Thomas: at HubSpot. And so I just shut her down. Cause

[00:00:23] Max Cohen: Devin works

[00:00:25] Liz Moorehead: what, George,

[00:00:26] George B. Thomas: it's do client work or it's fix the, uh, Roadcaster two button to an MP3 file. Like I need, I need somebody out

[00:00:35] Liz Moorehead: Max, don't worry. I know where your

[00:00:37] George B. Thomas: Can I get an assistant? Oh yeah. He works for Paleto. Taco Bell.

[00:00:41] Liz Moorehead: speaking of Taco Bell. Welcome back to another well organized episode of Hub Heroes. I am apparently your delinquent Hub Heroes wrangler, Liz Moorhead, as well as our resident content strategist joined as always by George, Max and Devin. And guys, I am so freaking stoked for today because we are back with another.

Deeply needed cathartic sales therapy session with our guy, Chris Stillwell from TSSG. Just as a reminder for folks who missed our first session. Yes, that's right. For those of you who missed our first session of sales therapy, I highly recommend you go back and check out the episode buying has changed, but sales hasn't, which was the first time Chris was able to join us.

Let's talk about sales processes this week. That's what we're digging into. And George, I know this was a topic that you were particularly psyched to get into.

[00:01:37] George B. Thomas: Listen, listen, I'm super excited about this. And I'll be completely honest. I was, Liz, you reached out and you're like, what do you want to talk about? And I, I usually over index on what I believe the listeners need to hear, I'm going to be honest. This time I was completely selfish. I was like, man, Chris fricking blew my brain the first time.

So, like, let's dive into some other stuff that me as a business owner, uh, and the guy who actually has to do sales in the organization, like, let's have that conversation. Then I realized, Liz, I actually wasn't being selfish. I was actually just being like every other hub hero out there, and realizing, I had some additional questions.

So that's why I'm excited.

[00:02:22] Liz Moorehead: so Chris, welcome back. We're so glad you're here. Clearly we need help. Lots of help. We're ready to dig in.

[00:02:29] Max Cohen: Yeah.

[00:02:30] Liz Moorehead: All right. I'm taking head nods as a yes.

[00:02:32] Max Cohen: Yeah.

[00:02:33] Chris Stillwell: I, yeah, I don't have the best connection, but let's hope it works out really well.

[00:02:37] Liz Moorehead: Oh, don't worry. Your smarts transcend technology.

[00:02:40] George B. Thomas: know. I, I, I, I'm telling you, like, last time I

was jealous, I'm now

jealous 

[00:02:46] Chris Stillwell: Oh, okay. If you guys can hear me, that's good. As long 

[00:02:48] George B. Thomas: Oh, we can hear you. We got

[00:02:50] Liz Moorehead: Okay. So first question, y'all, Why is having a clear, consistent sales process that's followed by all so hard to attain for most sales teams?

[00:02:59] Chris Stillwell: Oh, I mean, well, that's, it's a good question. I, I think. I don't know if that's the goal that most people are looking for necessarily. Um, I don't know if most sales teams are absolutely interested, um, in having a process in place. So I think that that would be the first thing is realizing that it's necessary.

but then, I mean, pretty much just, just looking at it and saying like, is everybody doing their own thing? do people have processes and procedures in place at all, or does there like a method to the madness? I usually look for like a leader in the clubhouse, somebody who's like the best on the staff and the best salesperson and ask them.

So, I mean, that's usually where I start.

[00:03:36] George B. Thomas: So here's my question for you, Chris, and it comes down to, like, that thing that you said, which I think a lot of organizations deal with. And it's this idea of is everybody doing their own thing when you, when you diagnose that everybody is doing their own thing, because their own thing is the easiest thing for them.

How in the world do you capture that? Change it and actually get an organization to do that consistent, clear sales process moving forward.

[00:04:08] Devyn Bellamy: and can I can I just piggyback on that question? Just just an addendum.

[00:04:12] George B. Thomas: Just a little tiny bit.

[00:04:14] Devyn Bellamy: yeah, just to that question. So, not just. Um, like, how do you, but what happens when the sales leadership is. Okay, with the status quo and everybody doing their own thing, like, how do you deal with that?

[00:04:27] Chris Stillwell: Well, that's the first big issue, right? Is it comes down to sales leadership. Now, that's an issue that exists in most organizations. Most organizations don't really have. leadership. Um, it's actually funny. One of the last sales jobs I had, I was interviewed, uh, by the sales manager. And at the end of the interview, he, he actually said to me, he said, uh, you know, I'm going to tell you, I can't really help you with any sales or sales related activities.

Cause I've never sold before, but I've managed a lot of people. And I thought that was a really interesting person, uh, to be running the department. It'd be like somebody, You know, coaching a baseball team that had never played baseball before. Uh, I'm sure maybe they could do an okay job, but I don't think they're going to go out there and win a world series.

So I think when you look at this, you need to look at it from a leadership standpoint, right? And say, how does leadership view the current boat that we're on? How do they view the current crew? What you're going to find is this, you're going to find most people who get into sales management are really bad at sales.

That's why they got into 

[00:05:28] George B. Thomas: Oh, my God. 

[00:05:28] Chris Stillwell: it's, it's like coming out from behind the bar and becoming a manager of a restaurant. What are you going from making 500 a night down to 560 a week? You know, like it doesn't make sense. So what you find is the best salespeople don't want to leave sales jobs.

Because what happens is what am I going to now get a salary, sit in the office, listen to how much time you need off and the problems you're having with your customers. When I could just be out there working 15 hours a week, closing deals and making 200 grand a year. Why would I possibly want to make that change?

So what you want to look at is, is do you have the right people in a leadership role? Is your leadership role incentivized correctly? And, you know, are your guys underneath that leader able to kind of follow the path that they're putting out there? Most sales guys hate the sales leader. They hate the culture at the business.

They just want to get their check and get out. When you get successful teams is when you build that up like a sports team and you look at it as we have a great coach who was probably a really good athlete back in his day. Then we have a great organization that pays the people correctly, make sure they're happy, make sure they're doing the work that they need to be doing.

And then finally, do we have an enablement structure that's designed throughout the business to actually train them, help them execute. And then help them overcome when they run into problems in the future. So like those are the aspects that I look at when it comes to leadership and change.

[00:06:53] Liz Moorehead: So, Chris, I want to dig a little bit more deeply here into this idea of, you know, where you see pain points, where you see friction, because I can guarantee you've, Encountered sales organizations that are like, yeah, we've got a sales process. Yeah, we've got a great sales process. This is awesome. But one peek under the hood and you can see that's not the case.

So can you talk to us a bit about what a great sales process doesn't look like even in well meaning sales organizations?

[00:07:21] Chris Stillwell: Yeah. Okay. So, so what a great sales process doesn't look like. Is everybody doing their own thing? Um, if for instance, we had heart surgeries, right? And you went to a heart surgeon and he said, this is the surgery, but I, I do it my own way. I'd be like, well, why don't you just do it the way that everyone does it to have the successful surgeries?

I don't want to. Have the guy with his own flair and his own, you know, personality and every single heart surgery. So I wouldn't do the same thing if I was installing electrical generators. Same thing if I was doing anything inside of someone's home, I would have a structured, specific way to do it. So when I talk to salespeople and I talk to, to, uh, different sales organizations and they tell me every sales different, uh, we all do it our own way.

Uh, this industry is different than every other industry, by the way, which is what you hear, those same three things from all these salespeople, ultimately what it comes down to is that they just haven't been exposed to process. They're not looking at it like a professional, like a lawyer or a doctor, or even an electrician will look at doing their job.

They're looking at it like they want to be a unique individual snowflake. So that's where I see the worst sales processes are, which you could identify as, well, he does it his way. He does it that way. She does it this way. She likes to do it like that. There's no real,

[00:08:40] George B. Thomas: So it's interesting. I want to jump in here real quick. I used to

downhill ski, so I like a 

good 

[00:08:45] Chris Stillwell: I'm back. 

[00:08:46] George B. Thomas: every now and then. But my, my curiosity actually goes, yes, Max, I went there and I did that. My curiosity, uh, where I'm going to go with this is how do you paint the picture of the great divide or the gap of the money lost?

Or the extra time spent, um, by not making the change from what is

this, you know, not 

[00:09:12] Chris Stillwell: It's no good.

[00:09:14] George B. Thomas: to actually having what we talked about in the first question, this kind of streamlined, consistent sales process. Like what's the, what's the gap? What are people losing out on most times in organizations? 

[00:09:25] Chris Stillwell: So I don't the thing is, is that I'm kind of past the point of trying to get people to see the gap, right?

Like, if you don't see it, that's on you. It's like me trying to explain you're an alcoholic, right? Like, yeah. Okay. You're not getting anybody in like, you have to admit it for yourself, right? Like that's step number one. So I think what's easy is to talk to people and say, um, in the kind of the way that my process works, which is, is, is talk to them and find out, like, Yeah.

Are you happy with how things are now? And if you are, that's great. But if there was something you could change, what would it be? Now, what happens most of the time is, uh, when people talk to somebody, they will say, what are you unhappy with? Right. So let's say like you were looking to switch advertising agencies.

Um, and somebody came to me and tried to sell me advertising. Normally what they would say is like, so why are you guys looking around? What do you not like about that agency? Well, what I do is, is I actually look at it differently. I want to find out what you like about it. Right. Talk about the positives.

But then I want to find out what you would change if you could, and I think that that's what I try to talk to most, you know, people in business about, which is, what do you think you could change today that would make a difference for you? And what's kind of holding you back? And I'll tell you the truth, George, the number one thing that's holding people back is either lack of resource, Or inability to see the future that they want.

Most people haven't even taken the time to think, well, if I'm closing at 40 percent today, and all of a sudden I start closing at 60%, how much different does my income look there? Right. Because in their head, they're thinking I'm the best that I could be. I'm number one. I'm really good at this. I close all the time.

40 percent is higher than the national average. People are crushing because no matter how everybody, anybody's closing, I talked to him, they're always higher than the national average. Uh, so it's like, it's very interesting to me. So I think that the biggest thing is, is you kind of got to look at it from a self diagnosis standpoint, which is if you're a business, right?

And you shop your insurance every year. That's smart. If you go out and make sure that you shop your benefits package for your employees every year, that's smart. You should probably shop your cable every year and make sure that that's working. Uh, same thing with any of your OSHA trainings. Why not the same thing with sales training?

Why not make sure that the income driving part of your business is being consistently looked at, fed, worked on, and brought up to the, the, the newest modernization and standards possible so that you're producing the most income you can? 

[00:12:00] George B. Thomas: Max, I see you shaking your head. What's going through your cranium there?

[00:12:03] Liz Moorehead: you

[00:12:03] Max Cohen: Oh, I'm just just agreeing.

[00:12:04] Liz Moorehead: how you're going

[00:12:06] Max Cohen: Um, I think the big thing that I'm also trying to like. Wrap my head around here is like we keep talking about like sales process And i'm sure i'm unsure how we're defining that right because like when I think of process it's like You know, Hey, Hey, sales guy, this is how you're going to sell to them.

Or it's also like, Hey, this is the experience that our customers go through. Or here's the steps that like, cause when I think process, like I'm thinking like, you know, I always bring it back to what I know, which is HubSpot. And I'm thinking like, you know, the deal stages and the milestones, but I, that's very different than like.

The tactics and the, uh, frameworks and, uh, you know, whatever sort of skills that the hard skills that you're, you know, you're teaching your sales reps. So like, I don't know, George, I know that a lot of these questions were kind of prompted by you. So like when you're asking process, like, how are you defining it, I guess?

And then Chris, we can kind of dive a little bit deeper into it too.

[00:13:04] George B. Thomas: first of all, I love that you're asking me the questions because I had the original questions, which is always like, I feel like I'm in the question matrix right now. Um, but I think it's all of the above Max. And I love that you're diving into that. The idea of there's actually probably two, if not three different, what we could call processes, right?

There is the tactical moving of a deal, a stage, you know, all of that stuff. But there's the philosophy of how to be a good human or the process of being a good human in the sales. Process as well. And so I'll, I'll just ask the question because Max, you don't realize it, but you were literally teeing up the next thing that I wanted to ask.

And that is what does a great sales process look like? And with that, what I mean by that is steps, parts, pieces, philosophies, like how, how unpacked that for us.

[00:13:55] Chris Stillwell: is steps, parts, philosophies, and I like that. 

[00:14:07] Max Cohen: Mm.

[00:14:08] Chris Stillwell: So what you got to look at is, is you have to look at not only how are you structuring your team? How are you structuring your day? Um, how are you structuring your conversations with customers? So you want to look at the structure of literally everything you do, but you also want to look at what skills do you have?

to accompany that structure. So most salespeople are built very heavily in usually one side or the other. If they've found success, you're going to find a lot of guys who can talk fast, have quick responses. And they're going to close and get a lot of money, but they're the least structured person you've ever met, right?

They're working all night. They're constantly doing quotes. They're telling you how busy they are and how much work they put in, but they're drinking at noon on a Tuesday and they're golfing on a Thursday morning. And they're on a boat all weekend somewhere. And you're like, wait, how hard are you actually working?

So there's that. aspect of that guy. Then you have the other guy who could be just extremely structured. Somebody who has a great sequence for every customer they talk to. Somebody who has a great follow up process. Somebody who schedules really well. Somebody who calls 400 leads a day, right? Dialing and smiling.

That's a great structure. Now, what you want to do is take that great structure. and teach that guy the great sales skills. But most people feel like sales skills are inherited. It's really interesting. People will say something like, Oh, you're a great natural sales person. Okay. That could be true. But if even if let's say I'm a great natural runner.

If I've never been to a track and never had a running coach, I could be a great runner, but I'm probably not going to win the Olympics. Do I have the potential to? Absolutely. So what they're actually saying is you have latent potential that seems like it could be good at this. But what most people do then is go, Well, I've been told my whole life I'd be great at sales.

So that's why I got into selling and I say, okay, so how much time and energy have you taken to speak to experts in the field to gain additional skills that can make you better at your job? And they usually laugh in my face. And it's because there's this individual snowflake mentality inside of most salespeople that that's why they got into sales, right?

they maybe weren't good at blueprints or they didn't do great in college. But they can hustle and they want make money. So for me, like realistically, if you can look at the structure side of things and identify the data exists, it needs to exist. And if you have a tool like HubSpot, dude, that's, I get like 90 percent of my customers to at least get the starter version of HubSpot because I tell them like, If you can at least start structuring things a little bit better, know where your leads are, no basic deal stages have an ability to send one or two emails in a snippet or a sequence to somebody like make your life a little easier that will help you.

But additionally, if you don't have the skills to be able to take a person through a step by step sales process, that's scripted with your ability to overcome objections, Close a person on the spot and know how to move on to the next step. So you can get paid and your organization works. You don't have a sales process.

[00:17:31] Max Cohen: yeah, I, so, um, something I want to, I want to get your, your thoughts on, right? I think, um, in a lot of the, the, the work that I've done in HubSpot, the, the wants and needs and desires of what the tool is going to do seems to always be coming from From a place of like, I want to be able to see where the deals are and I want to be able to run these reports and see, you know, where things are getting held up and do all this stuff.

Right. And it's always like leadership wants this leadership wants this leadership wants this. And I feel like, you know, oftentimes the CRM is, is just kind of like looked at as the tool that the leadership and the non sellers use. To just see what the heck the salespeople are doing, right. And they want to make sure they're like doing their job, right.

Yeah. Big brother. And I feel like, you know, the, the one thing that we always hear over and over and over and over again is why aren't my salespeople adopting our CRM? Like, why aren't they, you know, and they're asking him, like, why aren't they using this, like, basically, you know, just intense level of surveillance thing to prove they're doing their job.

Right. And like working in a way that may not be natural to them. Right. You know, I, I know what HubSpot does. I've been a seller I've sold. I mean, I still sell in the current role that I'm in, right. Even though it's not a sales role per se. Um, but that was my last role at HubSpot. I did it at Apple for four years.

I've been a seller. I know as a seller, I can get a lot. Out of a CRM in terms of value for me to help me do my job. Right. But I'm also like a bit of like a technology nerd too, as well as way too obsessed with a CRM system. So I'm very different than a lot of other sales reps. Right. So I see it. I get it.

You've been a seller for a long time. Can we educate people listening to this? What their sales people actually want. And need and what would actually be useful for them and what might encourage them a little bit more to actually want to use the system versus it being, Oh, I have to, it's no, no, no, this helps me.

Right? Like what should folks going out, setting up a hub spot, setting up a sales, setting up a whatever CRM, this is, I don't think this is a hub spot conversation. What, what, what should people setting up the CRM for their sales reps be thinking? Or knowing that the sales reps actually want out of it.

What's going to make it useful and like desirable for them to want to work out of it. If they're not like a CRM nerd like

[00:20:14] Chris Stillwell: could be a HubSpot conversation,

[00:20:16] Max Cohen: Sure, sure. Yeah, but I'm just saying like what value do they get out of a CRM? Yeah. 

[00:20:21] Chris Stillwell: Yeah, I get it. I mean, if you, if you want to look at it from perspective of like, say a HubSpot gold member like myself, who happened to achieve that in less than six months as partner.

Um, I think that the way that you can look at it is, is by saying, looking at the tool for adoption purposes. So I know I go back to sports a lot and what you're talking about is analytics. And it's, it's actually become a huge, huge part of sports. It's become a huge part of life. And the analytics is great to have there.

The big brother, the, uh, you know, how many did we do last month? How much money, all this stuff, but. It cannot replace working with your people in teaching your people. And, and, you know, every time you say leadership, I get the grossest feeling in my stomach because I personally feel like every business should only be two layer, right?

If you have a business, it's more than two layer. You've got. Problems right off the rip. Get rid of the guy that you brought in there that told you that's necessary. Get ready. Your middle level managers get rid of all of that. You should have employees. You should have managers. That should be it. If you have more levels than that.

You're screwing up and it's just going to get worse and worse. By the way, your payroll's fat and heavy and the people who are doing the work aren't getting the cash. It's the in the middle. So what you have to do is stop avoiding the, uh, you know, corporate buy in, the manager buy in, and you have to actually enable the staff.

Now, what does HubSpot say, right? That you're supposed to align, enable, transform. But most people don't, you guys hear me, I'm, I'm drinking the Kool Aid, trust me. I think the thing, what it comes down to is most of these dealers and most people you work with don't know how to do that. So just for instance, I sold a HubSpot package to a guy six months ago, right?

He gave me 4, 000 to set it up for him. That 4, 000 went in about two weeks. Okay. So I go back to him and go, okay, well now I got to bill you for the rest of the time. He says, actually, I'm going to have my daughter do it. Good luck with your, with your company. I said, great. Well, I know the guy who's the lead sales guy there.

They still don't have HubSpot set up, but the version of HubSpot that they have set up takes him 20 minutes extra on each customer he deals with. Now, I have other businesses that have since bought that package. from me, but fully integrated and gone all the way through with the process. And their quoting has dropped down from 60 minutes per call to 25 minutes per call because they're getting so much pre information through forms, emails, and data aggregation.

And they're also additionally adding in things like, you know, uh, social Facebook feedback, all that stuff. It's creating less of an ability to have to communicate with the customer overwhelmingly. And you're able to actually focus on just the sales process. And when I'm saying sales process, I mean, just what solution are you looking for?

And can I help you get that? Not what product do you need? Not what can I push on you? But what solution? So, so by modernizing the process and in fully embracing a software like HubSpot, you will get success. But if you use 30 percent of it, you're probably just going to cause yourself more problems and more headaches and then complain that it's not working later on.

[00:23:51] George B. Thomas: so,

[00:23:52] Max Cohen: something that I heard. Oh good Just one thing I wanted to hit on that. I heard there and that I thought was like super interesting is you talked about having like all that information like ahead of time like the Through the forum fills the emails the this thing and that thing. I think it's like You know you're I think when you're when you're when you're crm Enables your sales reps to have better conversations with people.

And there's actually valuable information in there that can. Either kickstart the conversation, uh, give you something else to talk about or a reason to get to a certain topic or, you know, uh, eliminate the need to ask a bunch of boring questions, you know, for, for, you know, and, and stick to the good stuff.

Like, To me that's gonna give your folks a reason to want to use it to want to adopt it, right? It's like because there's information in there. Yep. There's information in there that I can't get anywhere else Right that I didn't have to go and scour the internet for or whatever. It may be it's right at my fingertips, right?

Um, you know, so i'm just i'm hoping when people are listening to this it's like dude Like you should be building Like when you get your CRM, step one shouldn't be, I just need to see what my sales reps are doing. It should be, I need to create something useful for my sales reps to use. So they're using it in the first place and then you can watch what they're doing.

Right. You can't watch what they're doing. If they're not doing it in there already. Right. And you're not giving them a reason to want to do it in there. Right. So, you know, everyone listening to this, like figure that out for like solve for the adoption. And the value it adds back to your employees day to day in a meaningful way before you start trying to extracting all the friggin, you know, crazy vanity metrics and whatever it is that you want to see out of it.

You know what I mean?

[00:25:39] George B. Thomas: So Max, are you saying that you need to focus on the human and you need to solve the internal human problems for them to actually adopt the system? That's absolutely amazing. Now I want to dive into a couple of things that are happening here. One. Chris, I hope you ask this gentleman if he also let his daughter play with dynamite in her spare time, because that's about how effective that's going to go down with the CRM too.

The other piece of this though, I can't let go of it. I've tried to let go of it. I know we've kind of moved forward, but you talked about structure. And skills. And I said, okay, I'm down with it. Let's structure CRM deal stages, pipeline skills. I actually know how to communicate. I'm a good human. I'm servanthood mentality.

I got you. But you slip this other piece in bro where I was like,

wait a second.

You said structure your day.

And I was like, what the, does he mean by that? Like, are there certain, thank you Max for the beep. Are there certain things that I should be doing in the morning? Uh, while I'm eating lunch? At like, did, like, right, like, what, what, what the frick did he mean when he said structure your day?

In conjunction with skills and structure.

[00:27:00] Chris Stillwell: Exactly. So I want to get into this now. I'm just going to give you guys a little insight into me. Get a little heavy here. I used to be a pretty hardcore drug addict. One of the crazy things about being in sales is that you have constant access to a whole lot of money really quickly if you're really good at it.

So ever since I was literally in high school and selling door to door, I've been using heavy cocaine, heroin, meth. the good stuff for years and years, right? And it was bad. It was like, it was so bad, but what it taught me and I'll teach you all guys is now great. I forgot a lot of time. I've been doing really good.

Uh, but the last seven, eight years have been great. Um, and I'll tell you that the one thing it teaches you is you got to get high every day.

[00:27:45] Max Cohen: Mm

[00:27:46] Chris Stillwell: So I got to hustle. I got to build a process. I got to build a procedure to make sure with even nothing, sometimes homeless, I still got to get high. And that's how I look at sales.

I look at it. Like if I can look at tomorrow and say, okay, if I'm up at five, I'm in the shower by five 30, I'm out the door by six 15. I finished at the gym by seven 30. I'm changed and ready to go by eight. I've already accomplished more in the morning by eight o'clock than 90 percent of people I'm going to deal with for that day.

Right? So I'm already way ahead of all of you. So where you're thinking about, I got to get to the gym. I got to do all this other stuff. It's eight o'clock. You're not even ready for work. I'm already halfway done with my day. Then I got to think about how I'm going to use my day for work. So this is what I'm trying to tell you.

Do not put yourself in a situation where your calendar is available. all the time. You should have specific slotted things that you're able to do at certain times, right? And what I'm saying is, is this needs to be a daily activity. Like I said, the drug addict thing, you got to get high every day, right?

You can't really take days off. Those aren't the greatest days. I don't know if you guys know anybody, but it's not a good time, right? So my mentality always is I have to think about how I'm going to get that. tomorrow. So what I do is I sit down every night and I plan out my next day. Now, I am the least structured person you ever met in your life.

except for I have to structure myself artificially. I have to create an artificial framework for myself that I have to follow because man, I'm a light switch. I'm either on or off. It's either a hundred percent structure or zero structure. So first thing I always say is start your day early. Get up, get your shit done that you're would be thinking about for the rest of the day.

Oh, I get out of work. I got to go to the gym. I got to go to the store. I got to do these things. No, those are weighing you down. Get those things done in the morning, clear your day up, and then push through the rest of the day through a structured style. Now I just talked to a gentleman, one of my clients, Cody, great guy works in Texas.

He sells generators, dude. He'll take an appointment anytime you could give him one, which is great. But then when are you calling back your appointments from yesterday? When are you calling your new appointments for tomorrow? When are you sitting down and looking through your emails to make sure you didn't miss anything?

When are your follow up calls scheduled with other customers? When are you doing your permits and your GIS maps? And his thing back to me is Oh, I do that all when I get time. Now, this is the difference between a structured person. Now you can tell why he's taking my courses, right? Is because what I'm trying to teach him is, Hey, look, man, you have all the skills in the world and you can crush it.

But that time that you spend tasks switching back and forth throughout the day of putting on a different hat of I'm the guy who does the installs. I'm the guy who does the sales. I'm the guy who answers the phone. I'm the one who takes your check. I'm the one who schedules your appointment. How, how can you do all that stuff?

Right. So I think that that's where, like, we, we find the biggest disconnect and the biggest problem with structure is people thinking they're structured, but not realizing they're actually planning nothing out. You know, so if you want to go after that bag every day, if you want to go after that cash every day, you should be spending every single night, 15 to 20 minutes looking at your next day and literally planning out step by step what you're going to do.

Oh, eight to 9am. I'm going to follow up on emails from yesterday. Now, nine to 12, those are income producing times. I'm making outgoing calls. I've got two appointments scheduled. I'm shutting my Facebook off my phones on do not disturb. I'm making money. 12 to one, I got lunch, but it's a lunch out with somebody else.

So I know, you know, like it's, it's that kind of, it's that kind of thing, not for one day, not for two days, but literally every single day and get consistent with it. You'll see an absolute change. A hundred percent.

[00:31:48] George B. Thomas: It's so interesting. So first of all, before we keep just rolling on through, like we would on a normal podcast, I want to say, Chris, first of all, thank you for sharing your story. Um, because as soon as you started to go into that, I was like, man, homeboy is being vulnerable. And by the way, you can't have a testimony if you haven't had a test.

And so taking those life lessons and moving forward with that is absolutely freaking amazing. And where I go to is the other thing that came to my brain is man, Chris is really preaching. You have to know yourself. The fact that you realize you're a light switch all the way on or all the way off. And even the way that you were talking about Cody and when his kind of pitfalls and downfalls is like.

Listen, if you're a sales rep and you're listening to this, take some time, sit at the base of a tree and get to know yourself and what you need to put in your day. And I think that's why that structure your day tickled my fancy so much as I'm like, we got to dig into that bad boy. But you also mentioned another piece and, um, Max.

Devin, both of you are very digital savvy, definitely in the digital space. I'm curious on your thoughts on this too, because what I, what I want to dive into is you even mentioned social, right? And earlier you mentioned Chris, this, uh, dial and smile, which is like, there there's like that one way. And by the way, we'll talk about old school out of date sales tactics.

Uh, here, that's one of the questions we're going to get to. But I want to dive into this, sure, structure, skill, this is what a good sales process looks like.

How the frick do you do, how do you, Chris, how do you, Devin, how do you, Max, all of us are kind of in these roles or have been in these roles. How do you do this on social?

How do you do social selling or think about social selling, um, from a digital social standpoint, or even from like a networking out in other places, social, I don't care which direction you go. Well, I kind of do. Cause I'm talking about like the virtual digital version of this. Like talk me through that and how that doesn't come across as like this.

Oh, he was just trying to sell me some ish.

[00:33:56] Chris Stillwell: Well, I think the first thing is you have to realize that most people that you're selling to want to know one thing. They want to know a price. They want to price qualify you before they can talk to you. Why? Because most people are selling a product are pretty sure that their product is going to work.

They want to push their product. So the first thing you have to do is pump the brakes. Find out if the person you're talking to, if it can even work for them. Are you going to figure out if it might even help them? I don't want to sell you HubSpot if you already have Jobber. You know why just because it does emails and the other one doesn't all right cool, but is that gonna help you?

No, that's how I want to look at it. So I I'm kind of I'm kind of torn Because you know the way I always want to look at these kind of things is like how am I being helpful? towards myself And kind of towards towards the whole structure. I mean for you. How do you handle it George on a daily basis? 

[00:34:56] George B. Thomas: I mean, I asked the question because for me, this is a little bit of, uh, I, I sometimes feel like, I love how I just got thrown on the therapy couch like that.

[00:35:06] Max Cohen: Uno reverse.

[00:35:07] George B. Thomas: yeah, it's like, here,

[00:35:09] Chris Stillwell: looking

[00:35:10] George B. Thomas: draw four cards. Anyway, um, So here's the thing. Um, I feel like many times I lean very much on the, it's time for me not to sell and time for me to serve.

I feel like I'd land there. And sometimes I am looking at myself going, dang, gone it like, You just missed an opportunity or should you have been in sales mode? And I just battle with that when it comes to, you know, somebody hits you up on LinkedIn. It's a very valuable question. You know, you know, the answer, uh, do you go into servant mode and just give them the answer and say, yes, schedule 15 minutes with me and go, or do you kick it into sales mode?

And say, yeah, you can buy some consulting hours over here. Two totally different paths. Actually, those paths might lead to the same place, but it's a conundrum in my fricking brain that I can't let go of. And that's why Chris, the question was to you and to the guys, like what the.

[00:36:14] Chris Stillwell: what? What?

[00:36:16] Liz Moorehead: What? Yeah, well,

[00:36:19] Devyn Bellamy: Let me jump in on that 1 real quick. If I can connect. Can I? Okay, cool. Because because that's that's my happy place, um, is, uh, is, is social selling, um, for me, uh, I do both. So, the whole time we're having a conversation, I'm listening for opportunities. I'm listening for places and then I'm asking questions.

I will spend the 1st, at least half of whatever engagement I'm having.

Doing a combination of letting you taste the sauce, but then also finding out what you're hungry for. And then what I'm going to do is I'm going to be like, okay, well, it sounds like you need this, this, that, and this. We could talk about it more. And then just go from there. But for me, it's, it's, it's about just having a conversation with the mindset that I'm going to help.

[00:37:07] Chris Stillwell: But also

[00:37:08] Devyn Bellamy: Also, that, uh, the game is sold not told. So I'm going to help you. And then, and then in other ways, I'm going to educate you in a matter that you understand that you are not the person who needs to fix this problem.

I can. Teach, someone can teach me enough about my car to know that hell no, I ain't going to fix it. Like, do I know how to run brake lines? Do, do I know all the parts of a brake system? Absolutely. Am I going to do it? Absolutely not. Because after all that time I spent on YouTube learning how to bend copper tubes and then run them through that.

Hell no, no, no, shut up and take my money. So when I'm having those conversations, that's, that's, that's part of it. Like Like, when I was doing HubSpot onboarding, um, one of the things I would do is like, yeah, I'm gonna teach you the tool. But the whole time I'm teaching you the tool, I'm also learning about you.

I'm learning about your organization. I'm learning about your cats. I'm learning about everything because what I want to do is I want to not only get to know you on a personal level, so we have a connection and we have that trust, but I want to know what's keeping you up at night. I want to know what the problem behind the problem is, what you're really trying to solve for.

And then it's like, you know, we talked about this, this, that, and this, I think this is some of the things that can help and I can break it down for you all you want, but like, I, I've had like two different, uh, uh, onboardings where I'm teaching them and then halfway through, it's like, you know what? I don't want to do this ish.

I don't, I'm not the person, um, can you do it? It's like, yeah, let's wrap up this 13 week thing and then I'm allowed to talk to you about it. But, uh, yeah, let's keep that in the back of the head. But, uh, yeah, when it comes to social selling and then that, and, and then this is when it comes to the true, if you are a hardcore servant, when you are talking to someone about a problem they have, and you are not the person that can solve it for them, I will immediately connect them with someone who can, unless.

[00:39:02] Chris Stillwell: them with someone

[00:39:03] Devyn Bellamy: I know enough about the problem to hire the person that can fix it. And then I can just make my little thing and to be the project manager and all that. But either way, it's like, 1 of the things that I do is like, with me, it's not just social selling, but I will definitely feed other people and shoot them.

Like, yeah. And then people shoot me stuff. Like, some of my biggest contracts have been from a friend of a friend who know I can get down and do what they need me to do.

[00:39:28] Max Cohen: Yeah. I think I,

[00:39:29] George B. Thomas: I love

[00:39:29] Liz Moorehead: I'll tell you, I built my business 100 percent on networking. So far, my business has built 100 percent on networking. Um, I have all of my initial clients I met at BNI groups.

When I first started my business, the first thing I did is joined a BNI group. And I also took one of my partners and put him in a BNI group too. And we started networking. Now, as far as social is concerned, George, I get where you're coming from. You're kind of trying to figure out, is this a sales conversation?

Is it not, but go back to what I said before, help. And what Devin was saying, help. That's the number one thing right now. We say it, you'll say it to your clients about creating content. Won't you? Oh, get out there. Be a thought leader, help people make them think differently. Now, once it gets to sales, all of a sudden it has to become transactional.

No. And now ultimately this is going to answer Max's question from earlier. This is where you need an actual sales process. So if you guys were to become like a client with TSSG, what you would learn is one thing that we teach is called our five step accelerator. And what that basically does is teaches you how to have a conversation with a person.

Just a conversation. Some of you guys might call it a sales call, but it's a conversation with a person where you figure out some information about them to build gravity around their situation so they can understand the problems they're actually going through and how your possible solution could get them to the results.

They want. in the future. So just to give you a quick rundown and people can use this in every conversation you have with somebody, you could use it on a date, you could use it to get a job you use to order your food, right? First thing I want to do is I want to establish my expertise real quick. I want to make sure you understand, Hey, I know what I'm talking about.

I don't have to do it by reading you my resume or telling you my background, but I want to do it by the way I handle myself. By the way, I present myself, right? Be an expert, be a human. That's number one. Second thing you want to do with every person is engage them and understand them, flip every conversation around.

Now it's going to be tough to do. I know people love talking about themselves. God knows I do. I'm an absolute narcissist. I would drown in a pond instantly. Um, but what I'm trying to say is that if you're in a situation with a customer or even another human, you want to switch it to them. I want to engage you.

I want to understand you. Then once I found out a little bit about what your real situation is. I want to talk about your issues and how those issues impact you. It's one thing to find out that you guys are having problems with your marketing. It's a whole nother thing to find out that the problems with your marketing have caused a decrease in the show rates to your appointments, which are actually overall hurting the company when it comes to the sales structure.

And we might have to look at cutting back over the next year because we're not going to hit our projected goals and some of the people they're going to let go. I worked with since day one. Wow. That's more than just a problem with marketing, isn't it? But how would I find that out if I don't really have the skills to probe deep enough to have someone give me that?

Now guys, that's three steps. Now it gets easy from here. Once I find out what your problems are, What do you think a solution would be? All right. Like, what do you want to fix this? And if you do fix this, what does success look like for you? I mean, it's one thing to talk like, yeah, I want my car fixed. Okay, great.

But does that mean that the brakes still squeal and it handles kind of funny? Or does that mean that the whole thing is riding brand new? I have to figure out what's going to make you leave the lot happy. And finally, Before I talk product at all, before I even say that my solution actually can help you, I need to figure out what's been holding you back in the fifth step.

The most important step in my entire process is called igniting urgency, basically learning how to talk with people in saying to them. There is a consequence. If you don't move forward with this, what do you think those consequences are? And are you willing to deal with them? And most people really aren't.

But the problem with most sales processes, they're so focused and based on the product or logical that they don't actually have a conversation with a customer. So what I like to teach is just basic conversation skills that you can translate into a sales process through five easy questions and you'll understand everything a customer is going through.

Sales

[00:43:52] George B. Thomas: Hmm. Hmm. Hmm. Hmm. Hmm. I love that's maybe a rewind point. All right. Time flies when you're having fun. We're going to do rapid fire. And what I want to end with is the most outdated sales tactics that you've been part of or seen happen to you. And that you're, you just want to get on your pedestal and say, stop it.

Stop it. So the Devon's already getting excited. So let's go ahead and do this rapid fire. And then we'll let the hub heroes get back to their regularly scheduled day. So who wants to go first?

[00:44:23] Devyn Bellamy: going first. I'm going first. Stop saying my name in every other sentence. This is not 1990. You are not the wolf of Wall Street. Stop saying, well, Devin, listen, Devin, here's the thing, Devin. I know my name. I know we're, we're, we're having a conversation. Ain't nobody else in the damn room. I don't need you to remind me what my damn name is.

Or you tell me, well, no. We're not, this is not a cold sales call from, from a, a, a, a, a Roto. Shut up. Just stop. I'm, oh my God. Ooh, that's, ooh, that burns me, man. I will never forget man is due from this accounting company whose name I will say all say is that accounting is in their name and it may be a phone number, but check this out.

This dude. He kept, like, he called me, didn't care what I needed, and then kept saying my name over and over again, and then said, okay, what we'll need to do is we'll just need to take a credit card to hold your position. Not telling me that he's going to be authorizing 1, 000, 1, 200, but that didn't annoy me as much as him saying my goddamn name over and over again.

Oh my, oh, stop it. Stop it. 

[00:45:38] Liz Moorehead: how are you doing

[00:45:40] George B. Thomas: I love that so much. So Devin, how are you doing? Devin? Are you, are you calm down now, Devin? 

[00:45:46] Chris Stillwell: right

[00:45:46] Devyn Bellamy: I feel like this, this vein right here, just a little, I'm trying to bring it back in, trying to bring it back in.

[00:45:52] Chris Stillwell: bring

[00:45:52] Max Cohen: need a cigarette,

[00:45:53] Liz Moorehead: in.

[00:45:54] George B. Thomas: man. I was waiting for Max's that's hot. Like just show up.

[00:45:58] Chris Stillwell: going to be

[00:46:00] Max Cohen: there it is,

[00:46:01] George B. Thomas: All right. Who's next.

[00:46:02] Max Cohen: oh man, Devin screaming at me just like erased my brain, um, I think the outdated, dude, I, I don't know, I'm, I, I'm, I, right now, I'm, 

[00:46:13] Chris Stillwell: now,

[00:46:13] Max Cohen: I'm just going back to this time at HubSpot when you know economy was a little tough and Sales leadership is getting freaked out and scared about hitting numbers and this and that.

And like, the answer is, uh, just, you must make X amount of calls per day. And you gotta just drive through them and just go through it. And it's just like, just quality, the quantity of calls to me just never seems like the answer. Right. Um, and just making calls just to make calls. I, I get that there's going to be a lot of people out there that disagree with me, right?

But it's just like, you know, you get some dude to pick up the phone 45 times and you talk to somebody once. Is it really worth all that effort? Could there have been something else they could have been doing that would have been better with their time, a better use of their time that wasn't grinding them into dust and just making them hate their soul, uh, and potentially annoying a shitload of people that just never should have gotten on the phone with you in the first place.

I don't know. There's always gotta be a better way. So it's just, you know, a whole call blitzing or artificial, like numbers to, to make up for, or,

[00:47:24] Chris Stillwell: It's

[00:47:25] Max Cohen: I don't know. It's just, it's yeah, it's just, it just, it's way too many calls and just making too many calls just to make the calls is just, I don't know. It's silly. 

[00:47:33] Chris Stillwell: I agree with it, Max, to tell you the truth. Um, that's, that's when you get that old school saying people say sales is a numbers game. Sales is a numbers game to people who are bad at it. You know what mean? Um, Yeah, but if you're good at it, it's absolutely not a numbers game. It's a skills game. So I'll tell you George my People are gonna absolutely hate this.

I'm telling you I'm gonna have so many so many haters on this but the the lamest most disgusting indescribable sales tactic that exists is building rapport. I that phrase and I get disgusted. Finding out, oh hey, you like the Mets too? I also love the Mets. Oh, I heard you guys go on vacation in Aruba.

I'm heading to Aruba this summer. Oh, your mom's from Vermont? I love Vermont. It's the most disgusting thing I've ever seen done. I went to a sales call with a guy one time. Within three minutes, he loved Chevys, The Mets, in the same high school that that guy's wife went to. He didn't drive a Chevy. He was a Yankees fan, and I don't even think he graduated middle school.

All it comes down to is it's a bad tactic that people who don't have the correct structure or skills use. I love this. I have guys tell me all the time, people buy from me because they like me. Wow. So you're saying that you're closing at 40%, 60 percent of people don't like you. Because if people are only buying from you because they like you, that means they're only not buying from you because they don't like you.

So building rapport, or as I call it, conning people, isn't something that I'm a huge fan of. I'm more of a fan of having a sales process in place in being an expert in something that I could help somebody solve their problems through my possible solution. That's a sales process. Faking that I like the Mets just so that you'll like me.

That's not a process.

[00:49:34] George B. Thomas: Yeah, the,

[00:49:35] Max Cohen: It was,

[00:49:35] Devyn Bellamy: fat as in fat trying to raise my blood pressure, man.

[00:49:38] Max Cohen: yeah, I think rapport, rapport should be a byproduct of building

[00:49:44] George B. Thomas: well if

[00:49:44] Max Cohen: That's, I think that, yeah, dude, like, yeah,

[00:49:48] Chris Stillwell: artificially building rapport based upon similarities isn't going to get you anywhere.

[00:49:53] Max Cohen: should have been something that you both have built together. Right? You don't build a house by yourself, right? You don't build a rapport by yourself, right?

You can, you can make an active effort to build trust with someone. And that would a good step in that direction is not saying you like the Mets when you actually don't like the Mets. Right? Exactly. Like if they like the Mets, you tell them you F k the vets if you're not a vets fan. That's fine. Be honest with them build some trust, right?

Like you don't need to you know Well, I see that we both breathe air. I figured i'd reach out so we can share some collaboration

[00:50:26] George B. Thomas: oh,

[00:50:28] Max Cohen: k

[00:50:28] Devyn Bellamy: one thing when you're nerding out together about something, but it's like if someone's from the Bay Area and they just move there and then I talk about I've lived in the Bay Area, I grew up in the Bay Area. Do you want to come back? Heck no. And I will, I will all day. We can have a conversation where we're genuinely nerding out about something we actually care about.

And even if there's friction and hilarity there, that's a great, but if I've just. I just want to be your friend and like, like Chad said, Hi Devin, I love video editing, Devin. You love video editing, that's great. And it's like, no, uh, you, you, you, you can go to hell.

[00:51:03] Max Cohen: Yeah

[00:51:03] Liz Moorehead: just

[00:51:04] Max Cohen: Yeah, I just got this. I just got this dm that says i'm impressed by your profile and our shared interest in sales Let's explore potential collaboration opportunities excited to exchange insights with you. No, you're

[00:51:17] Devyn Bellamy: block you!

[00:51:18] Max Cohen: No, you're not!

[00:51:19] Devyn Bellamy: Block you!

[00:51:21] George B. Thomas: so this, this, this is a great segue into mine and then I'll close this out.

[00:51:25] Liz Moorehead: The

[00:51:26] George B. Thomas: the most outdated tactic that I see is sales are trying to sell with blinders on, meaning they don't understand me. They don't understand my inbox. They don't understand the things that I'm going through

because I can tell you there are at least 27 salespeople.

[00:51:44] Chris Stillwell: 27 sales

[00:51:45] George B. Thomas: have put me in a sequence of four emails around the fact that they can help people who are agency owners get more leads into their pipeline. 

[00:51:56] Chris Stillwell: gentlemen,

[00:51:57] George B. Thomas: and gentlemen, I don't need more leads.

[00:52:00] Chris Stillwell: gentlemen,

[00:52:00] George B. Thomas: Ladies and gentlemen, I don't need more pipeline. My problem is that I need more people to help me do the work that we're already closing.

And the fact that I'm in a four email sequence for 27 different sales reps that can give me a thing that I don't need. And all of them sound the same. They listen to some guru, tell them that this is the way to do it.

[00:52:23] Chris Stillwell: the

[00:52:24] George B. Thomas: And it's like, Oh, I know that your other email, you might have missed it because you're so busy.

No, I ignored it because you pissed me off. Like that's like, so take off the blinders. And it does come all back down to conversation, building trust. Being human, like that's the way to move forward with the process, with the skills, with the structure, with everything that we've talked about today.

[00:52:50] Max Cohen: George, before we end, before we end real quick, can I, can I, I didn't, I didn't chime in on the social selling thing, but I think it's like, this is like a, uh, you know, we just talked about, don't create this like artificial conversations with people who don't want to have them, right? The social selling side of stuff, right?

Um, you may, you may have those moments when you're in these sales calls and you guys are, you know, Uh, you find a really, really great fit between the problem that the person has and something that your product does. And it's this magical moment where it's like, Oh, I understand what you said your challenge was.

Here's this really cool way that you can solve it here. It works. They go, Oh, that's great. That's awesome. And like, maybe they buy or maybe they don't, but you probably sit there with yourself saying, man, I really wish I could have a lot more conversations like this. Well, dude, social selling is literally just going out and having those conversations with the world and the people that actually.

Want to continue the conversation with you, they'll get in touch with you, right? When I was out going in, like I was a sales engineer, right? And I realized this, I'm like, man, this is like a really cool thing we did on like a sales call. And then I would go out and just make a video about it or like give some advice about it.

And I would just sit there saying, this is why this HubSpot thing is so frigging cool. I'm not trying to sell you something. I'm just showing you why I think this shit is awesome. But I was talking about some problem that somebody had. And what happened is when I put that content out there, guess what?

People with the same problem saw it. And then they would DM me being like, Oh, I want to buy that. Can I talk to you? And I go, no, you talk to salespeople. And I would get them in touch with the salespeople. But dude, I had people coming to me every day and I constantly have to be like reaching out to managers being like, do you, is this your territory?

Do you guys do the, who's supposed to handle it? And I would just be sending people all over the place, dude. And all I was doing was going out there. And having the conversations I wish I was having on the phone with customers with myself, showing people how cool my shit is, right? Dude, social selling is not that difficult.

If you're not having the conversations you want to have with customers over the phone, go do it with yourself, record it on a loom or something and go put it on LinkedIn. And the people that watch it, guess what? They're having that conversation with you, right? And the people who want to continue it, they'll hit you up.

[00:55:01] George B. Thomas: interesting. As we close out, my simple brain says what I just heard is create content that starts conversations so that you can help humans do the thing that they're trying to do anyway. Ladies and gentlemen, we're out. See you next week.

[00:55:16] Chris Stillwell: We're out. See you next