Lead Scoring in HubSpot for dummies (HubHeroes, Ep. 15)

TRANSCRIPTION OF THE SHOW

Liz Murphy (01:08):

Welcome back to the Hub Heroes podcast. I don't know about y'all, but whenever I hear a fine print read out loud, I just like I get hyped, the passion. Anyway, I

George B. Thomas (01:18):

Love that guy's cadence too, by the way. The cadence that he gets on that is like, it's like he's wrapping it almost a little bit.

Liz Murphy (01:26):

I literally have never heard Safe Harbor language read in such a way where I'm like, and what's Nicholas Cage gonna do next? What's gonna happen? Anyway, hi everyone. I am your long walks on the beach hating host and HubSpot Nerd Wrangler Liz Murphy. As always, I am joined by George B. Thomas, our fearless leader of the League of Hub Heroes, as well as Max Cohen and Devon Bellamy of HubSpot, whose disclaimer is only as distinguished as their expertise. Gentlemen, how are you? I'm

George B. Thomas (01:50):

He's better than good. Wow.

Liz Murphy (01:53):

Calm down.

George B. Thomas (01:54):

Everyone called down. First of all, he's, Devon is better than good. Devin is a rev ops God today

Max Cohen (02:01):

Producing. Yeah. Hey, where'd you get

Liz Murphy (02:04):

That swag alert. Swag alert.

Devyn Bellamy (02:07):

So I got the hat from a little website. That's shop dot max jacob cohen.com which is crazy cuz his real middle name is ait, but I guess Jacob was just easier to

Liz Murphy (02:23):

So I'm loving, I'm loving the swag alert with some shade throw in, thrown in. I love that big fan.

Devyn Bellamy (02:30):

The the thing is, is that like I'm always gonna remember him because he is my first TikTok never made a TikTok before. First TikTok was my model walk. So feel free to go check my one. They say you'll always remember your first. So, um, max, thank you for

George B. Thomas (02:47):

I'm, we are still talking about TikTok, right? I'm, I'm honored.

Max Cohen (02:51):

I'm honored that I was your first

Devyn Bellamy (02:53):

<laugh>. Well, he commented afterwards and said, oh,

Max Cohen (02:56):

We're talking about TikTok. Okay. Yes. Okay. Sick.

George B. Thomas (02:58):

Okay. Oh yeah, yeah, yeah. That's what I meant too. Liz, you're doing a job wrangling, uh, the uh, hosts. Yeah, wrangle us. Go ahead.

Liz Murphy (03:07):

Listen George, listen George, I'll w wrangle when you hit record.

Liz Murphy (03:13):

Shots. Shots

George B. Thomas (03:14):

Fired. Cause you can listen in next week. Do you understand what the heck there's about foreshadowing? I love it. <laugh>.

Liz Murphy (03:22):

Is it foreshadowing if it's already happened? I don't, I don't know. Anyway. Well

George B. Thomas (03:26):

For the listeners maybe it's ait cuz I don't know what that means either, but I feel like I'm that.

Liz Murphy (03:32):

Speaking of ait, today's topic is all about lead scoring and that's what we call a segue.

George B. Thomas (03:38):

That was beautiful.

Liz Murphy (03:39):

We're talking about isn't it?

Devyn Bellamy (03:41):

Thank you. I was looking, I was curious as to where you were gonna go with that and, and, and you did not disappoint. So absolutely.

Liz Murphy (03:48):

I'm glad I don't dis disappoint someone. Devin George. No. So today we're talking all about lead scoring, right? How people get it right, but most importantly, how people get it so horribly wrong. For example, our lead has a score of 632, which I think is a good thing. Maybe I'm not a hundred percent certain what that means. So to get us in the mood for numbers that don't matter or are so ridiculous. I have a trivia question for you. Trivia, the highest scoring NFL football game ever was between two teams for a total of 113 points. The winner scored 72, the Luther scored 41 name. The two teams,

George B. Thomas (04:34):

Oh man, I suck at this, but first I'm just gonna say Tom Brady, he's the goat. Well and uh, so so it had to have been him. There's no other options. Yeah, no. So I feel like Green, green Bay Packers, for some reason Green Bay Packers to me feels like one of the teams, but I don't remember like if it is and if who they played. But what I'm gonna do, I'm gonna do Green Bay Packers versus like the Philadelphia Eagles and be completely wrong.

Liz Murphy (05:02):

Well good news. You were right about one thing. Yeah. How wrong you were. Devin,
Devyn Bellamy (05:08):
You Well, as enthusiastic as I am about all things sports ball, I will just go out and say the San Francisco 49ers when they were still in San Francisco and the Houston Oilers when they were still the Houston Oilers.

So here's the thing, in case anybody's wondering, yes, I am playing favorites today, Devin, I love that you still call 'em the Houston Oilers also muffin. You're very, very wrong. Uh, so the, the game was played on a crisp day in November, November 27th, 1966 between Washington against the Giants. Yep. The Giants had six turnovers and Washington had three non-offensive touchdowns, which is probably more touchdowns than they've scored in the last three seasons

George B. Thomas (05:52):

Combined. The funny thing is that most people in companies, especially sales teams, know about as much as their lead scoring as we knew about that question.

Liz Murphy (06:01):

You know, speaking of ais George, that leads me to my first question. So I wanna get right into lead scoring. There's a big difference between what lead scoring actually is and what people think it is. So George, I wanna turn it over to you. Talk to me a bit about what people think it

George B. Thomas (06:16):

Is. Yeah, I mean most of the time when we get into this conversation, especially if people have purchased HubSpot, they got tantalized by something called predictive lead scoring. It was one of the selling points that sales was like, and you don't have to do anything and it spits out this magical number and you're gonna have all the qualified. Yeah, no anyway, so they think that it's like this automatic number that means something, but unfortunately it's this number that means nothing to nobody because of the things that they're doing wrong with it.

Liz Murphy (06:48):

Devin Max, talk to me. You guys live and breathe lead scoring. It might be a part of the platform that you guys work on. What do you hear where you're just like, oh my gosh, why no opposite? Yes. This is the opposite of what it really

Devyn Bellamy (07:03):

Is. So I have a hot take on lead scoring in that we can discuss later is I don't recommend it. I would say even most companies use it and the reason white might shock you, I'd say a lot of people, especially sales people think it is, uh, the best way to cherry pick leads.

Max Cohen (07:19):

Yeah, no thinking required is what a lot of people do before they say the words we want lead scoring. So honestly, I think a lot of the people that run in the circles that we do get it, but a lot of the people that I talk to that are looking to buy a tool that does it, it tends to be a cool boss, like a cool word they heard their boss say that they need to do. And then there isn't really much else behind it because oftentimes when people say, oh we need to do lead scoring, I'll go, why? And then they'll go

And they don't have an answer and, and that's one super frustrating two leads to a whole bunch of, bunch of unnecessary complexity that you don't need to deal with. But three also kind of like reveals a lot of the un uninformed uh, direction that someone might have when they're exploring a, a marketing technology or something like that. I don't know what people think it is sometimes because I think everyone's got a, their own different misunderstanding of it. I mean a lot of people do get it right but majority of people it's, it's a little bit of a project. Get them there.

George B. Thomas (08:12):

I love that so much because it proves to me that about nine years ago when I picked up the mantle to figure out lead scoring and a way to make it actually something worthwhile, my heart is filled with joy that that's actually what Max said right now.

Max Cohen (08:29):

Well it is the holiday season George.

George B. Thomas (08:30):

So yes it is

Max Cohen (08:31):

Glad you're full of Joy

Devyn Bellamy (08:33):

<laugh> unless you're listening to this in early February or something then

Max Cohen (08:38):

Happy do

Liz Murphy (08:39):

Year in which case happy Groundhog Day Taxe is what we do in a couple of months time to find those receipts. Gosh guys, we're full of so much joy today talking about taxes, groundhogs, what is lead scoring? Something you should never do. Please don't. Moving on, we're really off to a great start but George, what do you think about Devin's hot take?

George B. Thomas (08:58):

Yeah, so I understand maybe where he might be going but I also have my own narrative around the polar opposite of that and where every company should probably be using it. But it just depends honestly of if it's this massive case of confusion or if there's a pleasantly laid out plan that actually makes things actionable and where it's diagnosing where a contact is in the flywheel or sales funnel. So I'm interested to actually hear his hot take but I feel like I subscribe to the polar opposite of it. Maybe potentially.

Max Cohen (09:37):

Can I tack on a another angle of George's angle on Devon's hot take much like anything in HubSpot that takes you a fair bit of brain power to think about how you tactically set it up. There needs to be real utility behind it just like there needs to be real utility in any report you build or any integration you scope out and create or whatever. There needs to be a really good why behind it because there's a lot of mental calories that can go into not only what your lead scoring model is but how you're actually using the output of it. And a lot of times the output people just are just like have numbers that say that some numbers are bigger and some are smaller and that's gonna be helpful.

Liz Murphy (10:25):

<laugh>, I couldn't agree more with you because sometimes when I hear lead scoring and I think about lead scoring, first of all my brain hurts. I go down the dark sad path like dev to us where I'm like, can everyone just go away? You're ruining everything. But then another part of me is just like that's what marketers do. We take beautiful things like lead scoring or let's say just the word authenticity for a moment. Authenticity was great until marketers got a hold of it in a room with a whiteboard and beat it to death. And now it's authenticity and it makes us all wanna cry inside. And I feel like lead scoring is kind of the same thing. Everybody likes the idea and principle but they ruin it before they even learn what it means, how it should be used, what's possible. I get what you're saying Devin, and I'm also wondering if we're going to a pure beautiful pleasantly plant as George put it, place a utopia if you will. What's possible? What can it be? What should it be

Devyn Bellamy (11:18):

In uh, the perfect world, one of the best things it is, is a tool to keep leads from falling through the cracks. You can trigger automation off of it. You can trigger alerts saying someone's taking a by action and it's increasing. There's like so many different things you can do with it that basically will alert you to someone who's a good fit that did involve you sitting and staring at their contact records every day or even someone who wasn't on your radar. It's like, oh well who is this? And you can take action based on that.

Liz Murphy (11:48):

That sounds a lot like what George was saying as well, but here's where I'm curious cuz I saw a ton of head head nods when you said this. You said it's a tool that keeps people from falling through the cracks. How big of a problem is that, George? Do you see that a lot when working with any of your clients?

George B. Thomas (12:02):

Well first of all, yes it's, it's a huge issue with many companies that we help because everybody is so busy especially and I'll, I'll put a caveat to this and again I'm gonna tease like Devin did, I want to talk about this. When you're great at your job, falling through the cracks becomes inevitable. When I say great at your job, what I mean is content creation, inbound paid ads, social media, you have more people coming into the door than you can actually pay attention to from a sales team cuz you're good at your job. And so what lead scoring should be is a place, and I, I agree with falling through the cracks but I like to actually even position it to you just get a window into where they're at and you can stop it before they fall through the cracks. Right? And that you're right Liz, that's why I said diagnose where your contacts are in kind of the funnel and the actions that are needed by the teams that are helping dependent upon where they are. So it's a huge problem by the way, did I say that yet? It's a huge problem falling through the cracks. No, well I mean it hurts. It hurts when humans fall through the cracks. You're gonna break some bones. Like you don't wanna do that. You wanna help people.

Max Cohen (13:09):

Well here's the thing, ready 127, is that a low lead score or a high lead score? Well who knows? And that's that, that's part of the problem. So we have it set in our outline here where we're saying what is it really? Well what is lead scoring really it's a number field. You're gonna see a number in a field, it's gonna say lead score and then a number. The question is what does that number mean and what are you gonna do with it? And do other people know what it means? Do other people need to know what it means? That is like the the the real nuance stuff that like a lot of people don't think about. You're gonna have a bunch of positive attributes, negative attributes, you know, so contact property equals something or they've done something or they do something give points or takeaway points, right?

But again, it's just putting a number into a field. So if that's literally what's happening, what are you doing to be creative of what that's telling you? I think we can get into a little bit later on in terms of like what factors should kind of change that number. That's only half the equation. The other half is what are you actually doing with it? And that kind of goes back to what I mentioned earlier. You have to have like a fine utility for it. It needs to bring you value as a marketer or a CRM administrator or whatever in a salesperson in one way, shape or form. And that involves a ton of communicating with your sales team, communicating with other, you know, parts of the business that are gonna use this magical number that you, you brought. So there's a big problem in like complexity and I think people's unwillingness to really get creative around it and really kind of think through what it is versus just being a vanity number that's high. Cuz someone clicked a bunch of blog posts like come on that's so, so stupid.

George B. Thomas (14:47):

Well and that's only part of it, right? Cuz they clicked bunch of blog posts. What's fun Max is you're leaning into, and I'll talk eventually about informationally qualified versus engagement qualified because engagement is like they're two totally different things and are you scoring for both and actually how are you paying attention to that and doesn't make sense. Anyway,

Liz Murphy (15:06):

No don't be quiet because actually George you're getting into what we need to talk about, which is now that we understand that there's a lot of people thinking like it's a number on a screen and we're all gonna have very good time even though no one knows what it means and what actually is. I mean that's what, that's what they've all sounded like in every meeting I've been into. I don't, I don't know what alignment meetings you're sitting in on but all this comes down to again, wow, I'm so surprised HubSpot is only as smart as the strategy you put into it. So let's talk about it. What do companies get wrong when they're building out their strategy?

George B. Thomas (15:37):

Yeah, there's a couple things that I'll hit off of the bat here for sure. First of all, the amount of times that I've seen somebody talk about lead scoring, like it's a one and done, meaning I'm gonna go put lead scoring into the machine and then I'm gonna walk away and it's gonna do its thing is grotesque because they need to actually envelop this campaign driven ideation of lead scoring. Meaning yes, when you first get into HubSpot you're bringing a lot of historical things in. Yes there should be a layer of okay, let's go ahead and add lead scores to the emails and landing pages and things that we created because we're getting engagement from it. But that's where it ends. They don't think about the next campaign that they drop. Well what's the CTA click worth? What's the landing page visit worth? What's the form conversion worth And the next campaign and the next campaign and the next campaign after that.

And all of a sudden you've got like 17 campaigns but you've got lead scoring for when you first launched HubSpot seven years ago. And it makes absolute no sense. It has to be a symbiotic ever growing thing that you're adding every time you add new content. The other thing that is, it's not teams. I added an S on there for a reason. It's not teams focused and it's not action oriented, meaning these scores, nobody can look and go 527 and we realize that's marketing, marketing qualified lead that needs to trigger an automated workflow that gives them 17 emails over the next 365 days to keep top of mind or to push them higher into the lead score to when they're an S sql. That automatically happens at 7 27 and now something else happens. And by the way, don't even get me started on the fact when I say action oriented, I don't mean for the actual contact, I mean for the marketer, the sales rep in the company, they know here's the action that I need to take because they're in this phase. And by the way, in a little bit I'll talk about radar research revenue cuz that's three dope phases to think about when you're actually doing proper lead scoring.

Liz Murphy (17:32):

I'd never think about asking you to get started with anything George, ever. No, that's fantastic though. And I really love the point you made about teams because Devin, I know in talking with you you also really like to think about this as a cross-functional effort, but that's the biggest mistake people make. They don't do it. Can you talk to me about that?

Devyn Bellamy (17:51):

Yeah, that's actually one of the reasons why I think there are a lot of companies that should not do lead scoring is because their level of cross functionality within the organization isn't mature enough to handle something like lead scoring. Lead scoring is a team effort that requires, if not an SLA, then at the very least an understanding of what a good lead is from every step of the way. And for people to come to a consensus about that, it can't just be marketing, I'm gonna put in my set of numbers sales, I'm gonna put in my set of numbers service, I'm gonna put in my set of numbers because in case you forgot, the sale doesn't end once the person gives you their money. So with that in mind, you have to be able to just sit down and come together and build on it and then come back to it, iterate, ship new decisions, rinse, wash, repeat. It's not like George was saying earlier, it's like when you just set it and walk away, the only thing that's worse than setting it and walking it away is setting it, walking away and then blaming the tool for not doing its job because you didn't know how to use it.

Liz Murphy (19:02):

I always find that so infuriating because you said something there about establishing SLAs between teams because there's some crazy stat out there where B2B sales reps say only 27% of marketing qualified leads are actually qualified in any way, shape or form. And to your point what you just said, Devin, HubSpot is not going to help you if mommy and daddy are fighting. Like that's not gonna fix anything. It's not gonna help you establish norms and responsibilities. Like if we're gonna do all this work to get you these leads and get them to a score we all agree upon, how long is it gonna take you to follow up with them? What's that gonna look like? Who's responsible if the deal falls through the cracks? There's something that George, you say a lot which is you need to understand that HubSpot needs to wrap around your business.

I don't know if you guys have ever seen that cartoon where it's like there's a stick figure standing there with a stick poking, something going, come on, do something. And that's how people treat HubSpot. Why can't you fix all of our dysfunction as a company? Just make us money and it's crazy. Do it. Do the thing. So talk to me about radar research and revenue George. So you're saying, we talked a lot about what, what it's wrong with most lead scoring, strategy development. Tell me about these three phases you're talking about that puts people on the right path.

George B. Thomas (20:17):

Yeah, it, it's interesting cuz there really is two major veins that I like to open up to the minds of people when I first start to do things on training with lead scoring, one of them is radar research revenue, which by the way could be an entire probably five week master class that would be put out for somebody who wanted to pay money and learn all the things you can do with this. But from a overarching just standpoint, there has to be a mindset wrapped around the numbers that are being being spit out in this property that is a score field. And so if you have sat down whiteboard, Excel spreadsheet, whatever and figured out here are the numbers, what do they mentally mean when I say radar, what it is that's allowing the person who has been made the contact owner of that lead originally know that there's been enough actions that this person should be on their radar.

They don't really need to take any actions yet, but they should get familiar with the name John Smith or Betty White or whoever it is because they're starting to churn, the butter's starting to rise to the top but it doesn't mean let's go for the jugular yet. Like just chill. We're letting you know something's happening, we're cooking something up for you. Then when we get to research now they've actually done a couple different things. Maybe they've attended a couple webinars, downloaded a white paper, whatever it is, but they've reached a score and now they're in research mode. Now research mode could mean two different things. If it's marketing, doing the research, it's we're sending out a survey, a poll, we're getting them to fill out a form with special questions or research. If it's the sales team's job, it's they're literally going out and doing research, they're looking at the website, they're looking at social platforms, they're connecting with them on LinkedIn, whatever.

But now you're doing research, you're actively trying to find the information that you don't have in your CRM through the processes they've gone before. And then revenue, it's a fall through the cracks thing. Literally we create an email with anybody who does radar research revenue that sends to the contact owner, the sales rep that says, Hey by the way John Smith has a score of blah blah blah. That means we should have generated revenue with them yesterday. Try to schedule sales call as soon as possible. And on that email we give them a reverse engineered lead sheet. The last page they viewed was their areas of interest are their phone number, is their email is like all the information by the way because we've sat down with sales and marketing and said, Hey, what are the seven to 10 pieces of information you need before you send a sales email or pick up a call for a sales call cuz we're gonna deliver that you in the revenue email that we push out. So mindset, right? Radar, ooh, something cool's happening. Research, oh time to get my hands dirty revenue, hey you missed them. Catch 'em before they walk out the door.

Liz Murphy (23:01):

So I'm loving all of that. And then I'm just imagining somewhere out there in the ether, somewhere in the great inbound universe, there's somebody listening to this who maybe they just got HubSpot for the first time or they're just thinking about dipping their toe in the pool of lead scoring and they're going, that all sounds amazing and terrifying and I'm wondering if there's some walking that I should be doing before I'm running. So Max, I'm really curious to get your thoughts on this. Should I be opening up lead scoring first or are there other things I should be doing first

Max Cohen (23:30):

You really need to nail everything else before you even have stuff to score. I've literally had people that have said, all right, the only thing I wanna work on is lead scoring. And I go, great, show me all your content. Show me all these places that people are engaging with. You show me all these things that you're doing that you wanna be able, able to score. And literally none of that existed and it was like what are we even doing?

Well you have to, you have to score your Content, right? That's a thousand points, right? It's off the bat, right? Um, if you fill it out 1,002 anyway, so like honestly the thing is like you really need to be like nailing down like your content strategy and have all these different ways that people can actually interact with you. And then you need to have like some sort of research that you're doing to really establish that there is any value in people engaging in those ways. Because again, lead scoring is not a perfect science. High lead score is not gonna tell you someone's gonna buy, all it's gonna tell you is how engaged they are. Use that information how you see fit. But again, not all engagement is created equal, right? Someone looking at pricing page is a lot different than someone looking at your contact us page. Someone looking at a blog post that is intended for decision stage potential buyers is a lot different than someone looking at a blog post that's like here's our five favorite Netflix series that got canceled.

It's totally different. And again, if the content's not there and you haven't seen how people interact with it and does that actually lead to people having a higher likelihood to want to talk to sales or purchase something or whatever, then you don't really have any information on how you should be scoring that stuff. So you really need to be nailing down everything else and actually have this journey that you can score these different engagement points on. And then you have to have let that run and be out there in a in the wild so you can see how people actually interact with it and does it actually lead to some sort of value that we wanna measure through a number? Otherwise you're just wasting a bunch of time. So that's one thing.

George B. Thomas (25:17):

It's interesting. Hang on, let me, there's something out there in the lieu of what Max is talking about and historically hearing people talk about content being the fuel for your inbound marketing success, all of a sudden my brain was like, oh snap, that means leaded scoring is your speedometer. Like literally if content is the fuel for your inbound success, the amount of speed or the amount of number or the, the way it's gonna raise or lower, cuz god knows use negative attributes anyway the way it's gonna raise or lower over time, that's like the speedometer of if your content and people are engaging with your content in, in the whole kind of system.

Devyn Bellamy (25:52):

I don't want people to get overly excited about a tool that they might not be ready for. The thing is, is that lead scoring is for people who are inundated with leads and need to see like, okay I, I need to make sense of all this because our marketing and sales and service teams are crushing it so hard. I, I need to be able to in some way find a way to prioritize or be alerted to these people's actions. And it's not just a sea of names and faces but I need a way to disqualify people who are not good fit so I can better prioritize my team's time. If those aren't issues that you're running into, like if you measure your leads weekly or monthly and not daily, this might not be a good fit for you. Lead scoring is like Max said, it's the last step.

When you've got everything else figured out and it's firing on all cylinders, then the need for lead scoring will present itself. If you're just trying to dial in and really put your existing numbers under a microscope just to see if somebody did something, then it's like, oh okay now I have to act. Now if that's what you're doing, you're, you're focusing on the wrong thing. You need to open the floodgates and then use lead scoring as some kind of net to help you prioritize. Not necessarily trying to squeeze blood from a turnip cuz that ain't gonna happen.

George B. Thomas (27:16):

So Liz, I know you wanna get back to lead scoring but I have to just throw something out here real quick because if we're ever under a zombie attack, I'm going to wherever Devon lives because Devon is the only guy that I know can calmly knock the shit outta something like no other person ever does. Like the way he started that he's like it's real peaceful and calm and also like ba like he just smacks you in the face with the fact you don't even, anyway,

Liz Murphy (27:40):

That's exactly where I was going cuz honestly what I was gonna say Devin, you remind me a lot of when people ask me like so what do you think about inception? I'm like it's fine. And then they get real disappointed but it's amazing, it's the greatest movie of all time. That's fine, I probably won't watch it again. And they are just like, what? And they lose their bites and people are over here going like Leed's going lead's going, what is it? Can I have it? And you're like, it's amazing and you may not, Devin, here's what I wanna challenge you on though. I wanna challenge you for a second and this is me as the process person. It's very easy to sit here and say you gotta earn leads scoring. You gotta wait until you're like oh my God, look at all these leads, blah blah blah.

And that reminds me of people who say well we're too small, we're agile, we don't need to document processes. And then they hit a growth inflection point and all of a sudden the fact that they never took the time to document anything when they had time, when they had the ability to get together when they weren't putting out fires, that's when they decide to go build processes. No. So my question to you is there's gotta be some sort of inflection point before the cup runeth over and when do you know you've hit it? When do you know this is the right time to proactively get ahead and actually start thinking about lead scoring at all?

Devyn Bellamy (28:55):

Well the cop out answer is that it's different for everybody. The thing is that when you're reaching a point that you are experiencing a significant growth in your pipeline from the marketing end and you've determined that it's not just vanity metrics, there's something to this, then at that point it's definitely good to start evaluating but at the end of the day, being process oriented off the jump when you're trying to eat that is difficult. Not to say that it's impossible. I am a one person shop and I have documentation on everything I do just because I'm weird like that. But there are higher priority things than getting your leads scoring in order. There's stuff that you just need to get done first and because at the end of the day it's about the energy that you're using in order to accomplish these goals, you're not going to get as much return with the amount of energy it takes to correctly do lead scoring as it does to correctly do content marketing and to come up with an editorial calendar and to make sure your conversion paths are tight to make sure your branding's consistent. You you gotta do that first. You gotta make sure your house is clean before you start trying to invite people in.

George B. Thomas (30:10):

So I don't think it has to be, uh, this first thing. I think it should, maybe the mindset should be a do this with this because here's the thing and and again I'm pulling from historical like onboardings trainings and when you have somebody that has a bunch of stuff and you go into the conversation of lead scoring, they do what every other human does. When you have a metric butt ton of work, you go, oh that's a lot. And then what do they do? They put it off and they put it off and it never becomes important because the hurdle that you had to leap to make it happen at first because you waited so long to get there is like, nah, maybe it's not as important as we think. But if you're doing it along the way, like it's just part of okay we did this, now we do this and, and maybe it's you're only putting the score portion in there and you're not really worried about the activation portion until we get down the road and we know what it means and we can tell people what to do or ask them to do during those timeframes.

But I just get nervous for the people who would listen to this episode and go, oh well I can put it off for six months and then they look and and six months they got like 13 campaigns and like 270 things that they have to score and they're like, ah, no, I, I can tell you I'm a one man shop as we're putting out content, I'm figuring out what I wanna score things, I'm figuring out what I want to put in place, I'm figuring out how in the future I might diagnose what's happening in the system. Now granted I get it, I have 10 years of HubSpot experience, 10 years of teaching people how to do this. But if I could just wave a magic wand I would say it's not a and or but it's a width. Yes. Get the content right? Yes. Get your content strategy correct, yes, get it scheduling but don't leave it lay, don't like don't sleep on lead scoring man. Don't

Max Cohen (31:58):

Turn it into a massive project down the line. Yeah, I think it's an interesting way of looking at it and it kind of speaks to the idea of like, listen, don't take lead scoring too seriously. You're not gonna get it perfect the first time and you're not gonna get it perfect ever. Sorry, it's never gonna be perfect cuz marketing's not perfect And if you ever think you're striving for perfection on lead scoring, you're spending your time very unwisely. But I love the idea of building the framework as you go and adding to it as you, because you have to, when you create more content, let's say you go and build a whole bunch of pieces of content made for the decision stage and you gotta say like, hey if they specifically read this stuff, like maybe that's a little bit of a better indicator of how it then sure keep doing that.

But again the stuff has to be there, there to score if you're gonna score at all. And I think the other thing to kind of realize too is depending on the flavor of inbound that you would like to consume, you might not even be doing lead scoring at all. Right Sherry, you might not even be doing lead scoring at all if you're the gate everything and, and create these like wonderful engagement experiences and track everything that everybody's doing and and taking that whole more classical route, yeah you, you probably get a lot outta lead scoring if you do it the right way, if you have good utility around it. But if you're more of the in the world of like demand gen, ungate everything, don't track what people are doing until they're really in that decision stage. You might have less need for it or you might be hyper focusing that engagement once it is tracked in the decision stage. Right? And that's okay too. Just make sure there's some utility behind it.

Liz Murphy (33:22):

So let's, let's go to a beautiful utopia where I have gone to lead scoring court and asked Judge Devon, am I worthy or am I wanting? And he said wanting but also worthy. You may, you may pass. And I said fantastic. George said leave it lay but what does that mean? No I'm just kidding. So now that we're getting into lead scoring strategy, let's talk about lead scoring implementation. I've leaved it lay I have been found worthy not wanting what does great lead scoring implementation look like and what doesn't it look like?

Max Cohen (33:52):

Okay, I have strong feelings on this. If you are gonna do lead scoring and, and George kind of talked about this earlier, you have to fundamentally separate the idea of good fit and how engaged someone is. So if we're literally talking about how to set it up in a HubSpot, using those scoring properties that you can put on companies, contacts, deals, things like that actually build lead scoring. An easy thing you can do is just build one called engagement level. Put positive things that people can do that measure some sort of positive level of engagement, start getting it in there, refine it over time. Make sure you communicate what that score means to anyone who's gonna use it. Great. But then you need something to pair with that because saying someone is engaged and saying that they are an actual good fit, whatever that looks like for you are two fundamentally separate things.

And the worst thing you can do is try to measure those two fundamentally separate things using the same metric, same number. So for example, if you are measuring like demographic and firmographic fit about a contact and how they're like engaging with you, if I just see a number at the end of the day I have no idea if that means oh this person's a good fit or oh this person's engaged spot had this problem a long time ago you would look at lead scores and they'd be high and we'd call someone and it turns out that they were not a great fit cuz they were like a student but they were doing a ton of research. So they got, they looked really engaged on top of that people had high lead scores but it was cuz they were a really good fit but they didn't really engage with our content at all.

That lead score didn't really tell us much when it was like doing both of those things. The biggest thing that I tell people to do or the the light that I try to bring people to is that you don't have to use a scoring field to lead score. Lead score doesn't have to be a number, right? So when we think about something like measuring fit, the most basic version I tell people to do this with is like listen, go build yourself a dropdown field and name that dropdown field fit question mark and literally have the options be good fit, mid fit, bad fit or whatever you want it to be you. You come up with your own scale and then what you can do is you can build workflows that say if somebody meets the criteria of a good fit, set that fit property to good fit.

If it's mid, set it to mid. If it's bad, set it to bad. And what does that do? Well now if I'm a sales rep and I get a good lead sent to me or I get a lead signed to me, I can look and see are they a good fit and separate that from the idea of how engaged are they. Now if I am looking at that engagement score that I create, someone at some point would've needed to tell me what the scale is. How do I know if a hundred is good or bad? How do I know if a thousand is good or bad? Is the negative number bad? Is it not bad? That has to be communicated, you have to come up with the model, you have to figure that out. But I would set it up that way and I have some hacks later. We can talk about that and make that even better. But I'm gonna shut up.

George B. Thomas (36:41):

Yeah, I gotta jump in here Cause by the way I, I whispered, I have a property for that. It's called lead status people. It's in HubSpot by default. I'm just gonna throw that out there. Anyway, I have to back up for a second because I need everybody to understand that this whole lead scoring conversation that we're having is a flee on the dogs. But cuz the conversation we're really having is the dog is quality leads and team process around quality leads. Lead scoring is just a tiny fractional piece of that. So what I love to do is, you're right, it has to be properties. You have to look at more than just a number. And I love whether it's in the about us section in a contact record or whether we create a customizable card and you can call it whatever you want. But the magic matrix that I love to look at is the persona property, the lifecycle stage property, the lead status property and HubSpot score. If you give me all four of those properties together, I can tell you if I should go home and take a nap or get on the call right now because I'm not calling Sammy the student but I'm calling CEO Charlie who has a score of 5 26 is a good fit and is a sales qualified lead boom. I'm just saying

Liz Murphy (37:53):

Devin, talk to me about what we should be doing at the implementation stage. Again, assuming someone is worthy, assuming you have anointed someone worthy of lead scoring, what are we doing

Devyn Bellamy (38:04):

Making it a working process? The biggest thing is that you don't just get together one time and then make the responsibility of one person and everyone walk away that that's not gonna work. And the other thing is that you can start small. You can start by measuring engagement like overall and then eventually you can drill down into the various aspects of uh, where they are in their buyer's journey or if they're looking at decision stage content or if you're waiting a particular campaign campaign over the others because you found that that one's highly engaging. But it doesn't have to be a monster process to start because you've built iteration into your process. It's one thing if you're gonna try and do it right the first time and walk away, you're gonna go down a rabbit hole. It's gonna give you nightmares if you just start with a small number of values and build out as you meet. And the values themselves though, they don't have to be in the plus 50 plus 100 you, you don't have to have giant numbers like it's the highest scoring football game ever or something. You can just keep it simple and build from there.

Liz Murphy (39:12):

I like when people listen. What are some great ways to hack HubSpot in order to do lead scoring well? Like what are some of those great hacks that you would like to lean

George B. Thomas (39:22):

On? So I feel like this is the moment and I know Max and Devon you both have something to say, but I wanna say this is the moment where I hope people realize that it HubSpot gives you the capability instead of tools that you can build a system around that score property. And what I mean by that is I love to teach people about things like informationally qualified. How many pages of the website have they read? 10, 20, 30, what's the average page views? What does that actually mean? Well does it mean that you have to educate them when you get on the call or could they actually sell your stuff to you because they've read 120 pages of the website? Of course barring that, you've done content marketing and you have 120 pages cuz like my friend Marcus Sheridan says, you can't ask him to read your website twice.

That never works out. But so there's four pillars that I like to pay attention to and I teach people again in this whole radar research revenue thing, we talk about four pillars. And so realizing HubSpot gives you a list tool, they give you an email tool, they give you a workflows tool that you can build an entire system around four pillars. First pillar is persona positive, negative personas. Go back and listen to a previous episode that we did on Hub Heroes podcast because we knocked it out the park with what you should be doing there. Informationally qualified, how well do they know the thing that you do engagement qualified, are they clicking on your call to actions? Are they opening your emails? Are they clicking in your emails? Are they filling out your forms? Are they doing the things that you want them to do from an engagement standpoint? And then the fourth pillar is time recency. Is it in like three years ago cuz that junk is cold or is it like three hours or three days ago? Cuz that's hot depending on the other metrics that are around it. Think how can I use HubSpot to build the system around what I'm trying to do? Quality leads, aka part of lead scoring and start to think in these four pillars of information, engagement, persona and time. I

Max Cohen (41:12):

Think a lot of the things that we said establish the utility of like what the score is being used for. Communicate to people what it means. So if someone's actually looking at it, what do you do with it? What story does it tell you? Given that you can only tell the story in numbers or another property if you do that good fit method. When I think of what's the basic utility of lead scoring is, alright, sales here are a bunch of leads that you got today that need to reach out. What's one surface level basic way that you can prioritize them? I don't know, work top to bottom on who's the most engaged. There's other things you should probably be looking at it, but if you had to like break it down to who's the most engaged, sure use that engagement score. Great, wonderful. You don't really need to know what's high, what's low.

As long as you can filter your view to show you the high numbers at the top low bottom. Great. That's like level one. All right. I think level two you start kind of getting in like right, how can I use this a little bit more smartly as a marketer? And a lot of times people struggle with when should we send the sales rep after the customer because we can't always as much as we want to. And as much as we should wait until a customer raises their hand to say, I'd like to talk to a salesperson, sometimes people could get be very engaged with you. They could also be a very good fit, but they haven't raised their hand yet. So a cool way that you can kind of use the idea of having an engagement score in a fit score is you could build automation or workflows for example, that say, hey, if their engagement score is above a certain threshold that you've defined and they are a good fit and they haven't filled out any of our forms that are the hand raises that get them in touch with sales, maybe we preemptively assign them to a salesperson, give them a little task that says this person hasn't asked for anything yet.

However they've been perusing our content quite a bit. They seem like a really good fit. Perhaps you should maybe reach out with like a light little educational introduction versus like, you wanna buy this, right? You know, so you can still assign it but you can assign it with context. What else can you do? Well maybe this would be a good reason to kick off a slightly more, I don't wanna say aggressive, but more pointed decision stage email nurture. If they're a good fit and they've been hella all over your content, maybe we kind of have earned the right here to say, did you know that we sell something here? You can get a demo if you want. You kind of know that like, alright, I think I have a good enough reason to maybe like position my product here and just like let them know lightly that like we do stuff, right? Or send 'em to the bottom of the funnel with emails, whatever. But don't do that. Don't do that. But like you can start, you've kind of earned the right a little bit to start some of the decision stage communication.

George B. Thomas (43:51):

Max's takeaway for everybody listening in this episode is send with the, and nu them with

Max Cohen (43:56):

Emails. It's the nicest way possible.

Liz Murphy (43:58):

<laugh>, I understand you've unsubscribed from everything we've ever sent for you, but would you like to schedule a demo with us and be our friend?

Max Cohen (44:05):

Yep. But I think there's, there's an important lesson there in like assigning leads with context, right? Like in that situation it's extremely important to say, listen, these people didn't ask to talk to you, but we think that you should pursue them. But you know, act accordingly.

Liz Murphy (44:29):

No, that's, you should apologize. Apologize again. No worries. I'm kidding. Devin, will you sign up for my friend demo?

George B. Thomas (44:37):

Oh man, it's getting all emotional.

Liz Murphy (44:39):

Devin, tell me one way I can mess up lead scoring in HubSpot

Devyn Bellamy (44:43):

Too many high value numbers. You can assign a number numeric value to an action. And the problem is, is that someone can say it's like, Ooh, that's a plus 20 action, that's a plus 30 action. And then the next thing you know is you're measuring everything against that action. And it's like, well if that was a plus 30, this one must be a plus 40 and it can get out of hand very quickly. I like to use single digit numbers wherever I can. My goal to simplify things for my sales team is that I never want my lead score to be more than a hundred. And so what I will do is a use negative attributes, which are negative actions someone might take that you would make them think they're not as good of a fit, like engagement over time. Something along those lines. But I like to keep it simple.

And then one of the things that I do is I go back and reevaluate all of the numbers that I've put in and is it tedious and annoying to some people? But to me the idea of basically having to constantly adjust the curve and understand that, well this action that was a 12 before now in the grand scheme of things might seem more like it is a nine. And that's what helps get my lead scores from getting out of control. But also it helps me, it encourages me to go back and reevaluate whether or not there are some things that even belong in the, uh, attributes in the first place. Cause there might have been something I was super excited about, which I found out later doesn't matter. But at the same time, there's something that I'm seeing a trend in my good fit customers who are closing. And so I need to bake that trend in my lead scoring.

Liz Murphy (46:32):

I love that. All right, we're coming to the end of our journey. Also emotionally prepare yourselves. Gentlemen, I have a great lead scoring related secret question for after this. But whether I am just getting started with lead scoring or I have been not listening to Max or Devin and have been doing it a long time, even though I probably shouldn't have been. What is the one thing, if I remember nothing else from this episode, what is the one thing I need to remember and

George B. Thomas (46:55):

Why? Yeah, for me, go figure. Oh, it comes down to educate your team. If they're not in the know of what they need to know, then lead scoring is a no. I'm just gonna throw that out there. And then the other thing that I'll add to that is once you've educated them, make it all action-oriented. There needs to be things to be done based on what is being seen. So educate an action. Or you could do it with ease, right? Educate and execute. Educate and execute.

Max Cohen (47:24):

I'm gonna, I'm gonna, uh, I'm, I'm gonna cop out and use, uh, Simon's Sinex phrase, start by, why

George B. Thomas (47:31):

Is that a come out? He made millions off of that. Well, maybe not millions.

Max Cohen (47:35):

I mean, cuz I didn't sure. I mean, yeah, I didn't, I didn't come up with it. But like it is another one of those things in HubSpot and inbound or whatever tools you use, it doesn't matter if you're gonna do a lead scoring, there needs to be a really good why behind it. Cuz it can take a lot of work, it can confuse a lot of people. It can really waste a lot of time and money unless if it doesn't have a, a need. Like if it's not solving something, why are you doing it? Well,

Devyn Bellamy (47:59):

I don't know. I just wanted to point out something that Max said earlier that I think ties into that as far as it's purpose concerned, lead scoring shouldn't exist in a vacuum. Lead scoring is not a standalone thing. It should trigger automation, it should trigger information, it should trigger action. It shouldn't just be an arbitrary

George B. Thomas (48:16):

Value. Yeah. So I'm gonna go with that a little bit as well because where my brain went, max with what you're saying is this is the, I I'm, dang God, it, I tried to go a whole episode without saying this is where my brain goes. Dang. Got it. Check uhhow. Hi husband. Anyway, waiting. And anyway, this is where my brain is going with that comment is that first diagnosis, if there's a need, and then if there is a need, this is one of the ultimate places where you slow down to speed up and you come up with a plan. You don't just hop in a HubSpot and start punching numbers in. You get your teams together, you get a whiteboard, you get a lead scoring matrix, Excel spreadsheet, whatever, and you map it out and then you go in to HubSpot and do it. So is there a need? And then have a plan

Max Cohen (49:02):

Also real quick, I'm selling a couple hats that are scientifically proven to improve your lead scoring skills. I think specifically Rev Ops Wizard and Revs Overlord adds a plus five lead scoring intelligence stat to your, to your brain when you put it on. So shop dot match com.com.

Liz Murphy (49:17):

I love how when I say tell me one thing, I get 17, it's almost as if I get yelled at for wrangling you or not wrangling you and then you don't listen. Also by the swag,

Max Cohen (49:29):

The hat not back season. It's Snap.

George B. Thomas (49:31):

Didn't Know there was now this snap. But anyway,

Liz Murphy (49:35):

Are you ready for the secret question?

George B. Thomas (49:38):

Oh, I don't

Liz Murphy (49:38):

Know.

George B. Thomas (49:38):

Let's, does it have anything to do with the record button? God, I hope not.

Max Cohen (49:43):

Oh, it's still on. Hey, it's still on

Liz Murphy (49:45):

<laugh>. You know, George, I wasn't gonna bring it up.

George B. Thomas (49:48):

That's next episode. Next episode.

Liz Murphy (49:50):

Next episode. Okay. All right. Let's pretend for a moment that each of us has a lead scoring model deep within our hearts for friendship. Here is what I wanna know. You have a choice. You can tell me what gives someone a thousand plus points in their lead scoring model as your potential friend, or negative 1000 points as your potential friend <laugh>. Only one of those

George B. Thomas (50:17):

Tell. Oh, we can only do one.

Liz Murphy (50:20):

Fine. You can do both. Oh

George B. Thomas (50:21):

Yes.

Liz Murphy (50:22):

Because you know what happened? You ding Dons would be like, well, I know I was only supposed to to choose one, but I'm gonna give you seven. So yes, let's go with two

Max Cohen (50:32):

Both. I wish I had time to think of a funny response to this. Cause I feel like later on today I'm gonna be like, oh, I should have said this.

Liz Murphy (50:39):

Make a hat about

Max Cohen (50:40):

It. Funny. But you can't, but you can't think on your

George B. Thomas (50:42):

Feet. Okay, I'll give you some time and then maybe Devin, and then you can go. Cause for me, this is actually pretty darn easy. As soon as the question was being stated, I like thought of both of 'em. So on the positive lead scoring that I know that you're thousand points to being my friend, is if I see that you are a blessing bomber, if you are a giver, if you are putting into the world, right? If you're just like there to make people smile, leaving them better than you met them, like in any way, it could be financially, spiritually, emotionally. You're just, you're bombing the world with blessings. You get a thousand plus points and we're gonna hang out and we're gonna smoke cigars, drink whiskey, and sit by my fire pit. Like without a doubt. On the other side, selfishness, if you, if you are selfish and it's all about you and the like, you're gonna conquer the world and you're gonna just like demolish everybody around you to get there, or whatever it looks like, then it's like, nope. I, I literally have a saying by the way, cuz it's like hashtag no douche bags allowed. Like that's, that's part of my code. Like, nope, not hanging out with douche bags. Negative thousand on the friend score.

Liz Murphy (51:53):

If anybody wants a glimpse into the dynamic of my friendship with George, my answers are somewhat different. You get a positive 1000 if you appreciate the glory, the splendor, the wonder that is the National Treasure Nicholas Cage, cuz that's where my priority is. And you get a negative 1000. If you think Sophia Coppola did anything except ruining Godfather three with her presence, fabulous director, incredible filmmaker, godfather three, what could have been, I am so violently offended at the existence of Godfather three. Only reason I keep watching it is because Andy Garcia, when he was young, was super hot. Like the most hot. I know, I know, George, you agree? I know you agree now. So George is there with a kindness and, and humanity, and I'm here with Nicholas Cage and, and Godfather three takes Devin, save us from ourselves.

Devyn Bellamy (52:42):

Sure. Well, I, I guess I'll go in in the middle. I've never met a hardcore Deadpool fan that I didn't like. I don't know what it is about us. Like, I remember when I was, last time I was in Boston, I was coming up with a hotel and the lady said, nice shirt. And I saw she was wearing a Deadpool shirt. I was like, yeah, nice shirt. I said, it matches my socks. And she's like, yeah, it matches my tattoo. And it was the most awesome Deadpool tattoo I had ever seen. She and I had like a moment there she is like the greatest human being I've ever met. I don't care. She is just, she, it was great. It was, it was was a wonderful moment. So plus a thousand, if you're into, and not just movie Ryan Reynolds Deadpool, though, I do love him, uh, dearly. Specifically, if you're into comic book Deadpool, especially first version

Max Cohen (53:38):

Deadpool, you know, it would've been funny is if after she showed you her tattoo, you said, wow, cool tattoo. I named my son <laugh>.

Devyn Bellamy (53:50):

Oh wait, I didn't give my negative. I gotta give my negative. Um, my negative is

Liz Murphy (53:55):

Duplicity. Beautiful

Devyn Bellamy (53:56):

Delivery, duplicitous people, beautiful delivery, hotter, cold, lukewarm. I will spit you out. Oh

Max Cohen (54:02):

Yeah.

Devyn Bellamy (54:02):

I knew George would like that. I knew

George B. Thomas (54:04):

George lot. That's, that's like close to maybe the first biblical reference on Thes podcast. I'm just gonna throwing that out there. Second. Second.

Devyn Bellamy (54:11):

I, everyone out the first episode I do it for, we go for Sheez and Gies every now and then. Yeah.

Liz Murphy (54:17):

All right, max, you're the last guy at Benin's weighing mozzarella sticks or potato skins. Pony up <laugh>.

Max Cohen (54:22):

Oh my God.

Devyn Bellamy (54:24):

I I would get stage frighted after that. I would freeze up after that level of a toss. But

George B. Thomas (54:30):

Max did n just hang up. No, I'm kidding. I'm

Max Cohen (54:32):

Kidding. First thing, first thing, first thing first. I, I still don't know what ait means or duplicitous, so someone's gonna have to help me.

Liz Murphy (54:41):

You have to ask. You can't

Max Cohen (54:43):

Afford, it's like a job hashtag Google <laugh>. So Yes.

Devyn Bellamy (54:47):

Yes.

Max Cohen (54:47):

Um,

Devyn Bellamy (54:49):

Now that's what I'm talking

Max Cohen (54:50):

About. Plus a thousand. I'm just like, hon I'm just, I'm a big hugger. I like a big hug. Uh, I'll hug everybody. Just like gimme a hug. You like hugs. That's cool. It's not weird. I just like hugging everybody. So that's always really good in my book. Negative 1000. If you're someone who overcooks your eggs negative 10,000. Oh yeah. No, it's just, you just eggs. You just can't, can't overcook your eggs. You just, yeah, just wrong. Well, no, our heart

But I'm just like, if you're like, for example, if I'll making it a breakfast sandwich over hard, that's okay cuz I don't want, I, I do love, I do love a yogi sandwich, but sometimes I need to, I need to bring it somewhere or I'm wearing a shirt that I can't risk a little bit of. Yo, I, I, i I I'll do the over hard, but if that's on plate, Devi, we're gonna have words, man. <laugh> we're, if you're eating that with a fork, bro, we're gonna fight. It's on site, my man. But I love you though. I don't a hug after. So

Devyn Bellamy (55:49):

It's there. There's a reason behind my over hard

George B. Thomas (55:52):

Though. I gotta have me some,

Devyn Bellamy (55:54):

I, I used to work at a very sketchy ihop, you don't even need to say sketchy. They used grade that B eggs didn't even know that. Grade B eggs were a thing. They used grade B eggs and then for their scrambled mix, they didn't scramble the eggs. They had scrambled mix. They would pour old mix in the new mix and completely ruin the pasteurization. And that IHOP has since closed. So thank God, I

Max Cohen (56:17):

Don't mind unless it should. That's

Liz Murphy (56:18):

What a shock. I am blown away.

Devyn Bellamy (56:21):

Yeah. Ever, ever since be eggs and grade B eggs and, and that, that's why I have to do overall.

George B. Thomas (56:27):

Well let me make you a

Devyn Bellamy (56:29):

Everything that

George B. Thomas (56:31):

I will blow your

Liz Murphy (56:32):

Mind. <laugh>. So,

Devyn Bellamy (56:35):

But if I'm drunk, it's a completely different story. Give me a Oh, well there you go.

George B. Thomas (56:39):

Burger all day. Drunk or sober. Man, I love to hold on Dipp play. Wait, what about a grill I'd? I just love to dip my toast. What about a grill? The bagel? Oh yeah, yeah. We're going to weird places.

Devyn Bellamy (56:50):

We have gone so far off topic and it's beautiful.

Liz Murphy (56:53):

We started at lead scoring. We've ended with war crimes, the ying dippy eggs. And that says to me, it's time to go. Thank you so much for joining us this week. Please leave a review. It made everyone uncomfortable when we started talking about Griddled bagels. So you do not need to mention that in the review, but if you would like to mention friendship, your feelings on Nicholas Cage, your thoughts on lead scoring or if you're one of those people wondering, but wait, can I lead score a company? You can, but that's a different episode about ABM and not a topic for today's discussion. And with that gentlemen, oh

George B. Thomas (57:27):

Yeah,

Liz Murphy (57:27):

Get out. You don't have to go home, but you can't stay here.

George B. Thomas (57:30):

I'm home

Liz Murphy (57:31):

Though. Please, please. Why couldn't you just play along? Why do you have to make it awkward? Everyone hang up. Goodbye. I don't