2 min read

What Is Quality Content? The Answer Has Changed, feat. Todd Clouser (HubHeroes, Ep. 53)


One of our favorite things about the inbound ecosystem is probably something that others love ... but also kind of hate at the same time. This wild and wondrous HubSpot universe is always changing rapidly, in terms of what's in and what's out with inbound.

That means the conversations we have about topics like marketing, sales, and content will often still center around us trying to dissect the same questions over and over again. However, as time marches on and innovation continues to move us forward (whether we like it or not), how we answer those very same question often drastically change.

💥 Related HubHeroes Episodes:

Let's look at one of the hottest topics in the inbound ecosystem — creating content. There are tens if not hundreds of questions that leave many of us bashing our heads into the walls over content. But there are two that come to mind as probably the most hotly debated questions about content over the years:

  • How do you define QUALITY content?
  • What does a great mix of content look like?

We've talked about the anatomy of great content before, as well as the importance of showcasing your humanity in said content, no matter how fancy AI solutions become. But we need to stop for a moment and evaluate how drastically the answers we've had to those questions have changed over the years.

🔎 Related: AI, ChatGPT, and the Future of Inbound Marketing

Last week, Liz had a fascinating conversation with Todd Clouser of Lavender around what it means to build a media engine as a brand, particularly in the B2B space. But the starting point of his framework drills directly into those two very questions about content ... as well as how we should be answering those questions today.

When she reported back to share what we learned, we knew immediately Todd had to be our guide through this epic quality content deep-dive.

What We Talked About

  • How did we used to define quality content when we first started in inbound? 
  • How do we define quality content today? What's changed and why?
  • What are the three categories of content quality every brand must be using to plan and measure what they're producing?
  • Why is it critical to have a diverse range of content types today?
  • Should you be "funny" in your content? When does it make sense? When is it a bad call for your brand?
  • What about organizations that feel stuck in the stone ages, where they drilling into higher quality content with different types of content and media feels out of reach?

  • What are the essential mindsets we must possess today to create quality content?

Additional Resources

HubHeroes Community

(We've made it easy!)

💥 POP QUIZ: How do you define quality content?

If you're anything like us, how you answer that question today is DRASTICALLY different than five years ago. (At least we hope it is!) 

But WHY has the answer to that question changed? And why is understanding this change so important to. your success with inbound?

Find out on this week's episode of #HubHeroes, with special guest Todd Clouser of Lavender! 


#inboundmarketing #contentmarketing #b2bmarketing #contentstrategy #b2bcontent #content #hubspot 

⚡ Do you know how to define what quality content looks like?

⚡ What are the three boxes your content must check to succeed today?

⚡ Do you need to be funny in your content in order to showcase authenticity?

⚡ Where is Max driving us this week on the pod?

Find out the answers to these questions and more on this week's episode of #HubHeroes, with special guest Todd Clouser of Lavender! 


#inboundmarketing #contentmarketing #b2bmarketing #contentstrategy #b2bcontent #content #hubspot 

📊 Today, quality content has to check at least one of these boxes — ✅ educational, ✅ insightful, or ✅ entertaining. 

How well does your content strategy currently stack up? And how do you lean into these categories if you're ready to level-up your content A-game?

Find out the answers to these questions and more on this week's episode of #HubHeroes, with special guest Todd Clouser of Lavender! 


#inboundmarketing #contentmarketing #b2bmarketing #contentstrategy #b2bcontent #content #hubspot 

hubheroes thanksgiving reflections 2023

A Very Special Thanksgiving Episode (HubHeroes, Ep. 60)

OK, this is kind of funny. Going into this week, George and I knew beyond the shadow of a doubt that we wanted to do a Thanksgiving episode. We...

hubheroes sales training chris stilwell tssg

Buying Has Changed, Sales Hasn't; Now What? Feat. Chris Stilwell (HubHeroes, Ep. 59)

If you've spent any length of time in the inbound space, the idea that buyers have changed how they make their decisions isn't a new concept....

Meet your HubHeroes

Liz Murphy


Agency vet, content therapist, messaging strategist, HubHero wrangler.

Devyn Bellamy


HubSpotter, partner enabler, strategy wizard, BLACK@INBOUND.

Max Cohen


HubSpotter, senior solutions engineer, CRM evangelist, a millennial on TikTok.

George B. Thomas


HubHeroes leader, growth catalyst, guardian of humans, HubSpot expert.

[00:00:00] George B. Thomas: Devin, isn't

[00:00:00] Liz Moorehead: I gotta be

[00:00:01] George B. Thomas: get a constant reminder that you have your own thoughts? Also, Liz, before you jump in here, before you jump in here, Todd, yes, there is a small audience. There's a small, small audience from the community. So like, first of all, if you're listening to this podcast, we're not on LinkedIn.

We're not on YouTube live. We're not on like any, but. But if you go to the community, go to community. hubheroes. com, then you get the special link, then you can show up. And so there are some, some amazing troopers that show up on Fridays at three o'clock to kind of pay attention to our shenanigans. Uh, so, so there's no reason to be stressed.

We're just going to rock and roll. Liz, I know I hijacked the beginning of the show, which means there's probably going to be a poem or a limerick. Or some crazy ish at the end of this because of that, but I'll shut up now and you can go ahead.

[00:00:55] Liz Moorehead: you just don't summon the Poetry Beast, the Poetry Beast does not appear. But you say it, you say it, and you manifest it. Right?

[00:01:03] George B. Thomas: I'm bringing it. I'm, I, I, maybe I miss it. Maybe I miss it. I don't know.

[00:01:08] Max Cohen: I kind of miss it,

[00:01:10] George B. Thomas: Maybe.

[00:01:11] Liz Moorehead: Maybe because we have a very special guest today, maybe I'll bring it back.

[00:01:15] George B. Thomas: we

[00:01:15] Liz Moorehead: I'll bring it back. Well, gentlemen, It is a miracle that we are back here this week

[00:01:20] George B. Thomas: Wrong, sorry,

[00:01:21] Liz Moorehead: last week's,

[00:01:21] George B. Thomas: wrong show.

[00:01:22] Liz Moorehead: wrong show, wrong show. A miracle that we made it through last week's episode, am I right? It is a miracle.

[00:01:29] Max Cohen: that was uh, we were really white knuckling that one. That was,

[00:01:33] George B. Thomas: yeah, my, my Starcher engines might have been a throwback to Max's steering wheel, just saying.

[00:01:39] Liz Moorehead: Oh my god.

[00:01:41] Todd: a

[00:01:41] Liz Moorehead: we don't need to be driven anywhere today, okay bud?

[00:01:45] Max Cohen: alright, well I won't turn this car around.

[00:01:47] Todd: first, Devin gets a call out that his opinions are his own, which I feel like there's some sort of story behind that. It's like, we need to, we need to call that out ahead of time.

[00:02:02] Liz Moorehead: Oh my god. Oh

[00:02:03] Devyn Bellamy: start like, talking about like, OJ didn't do it or something,

[00:02:06] Max Cohen: sh

[00:02:07] Devyn Bellamy: ha ha ha ha ha ha

[00:02:14] Max Cohen: Oh, wow, this is going well so

[00:02:16] Liz Moorehead: Todd, welcome to Hub Heroes.

[00:02:18] George B. Thomas: the show begin!

[00:02:19] Max Cohen: Alright.

[00:02:21] Liz Moorehead: How you doing, Okay, everyone, I

[00:02:24] Max Cohen: commotion happening.

[00:02:25] George B. Thomas: I have,

[00:02:25] Liz Moorehead: Max, George, and Devin. Zip

[00:02:27] George B. Thomas: Who, who's the cat wrangler in here? Can we get a cat wrangler, please?

[00:02:32] Max Cohen: Liz? Woo!

[00:02:34] Liz Moorehead: Max. Everyone zip it. I will turn this I will turn this recording around. I will pull over. There are no bathroom stops until the next Wendy's. Todd, welcome to Hub Heroes. We are so glad you're here. Tell us about

[00:02:47] Todd: very much. hi, I'm Todd.

[00:03:00] Liz Moorehead: I'm sorry your welcoming

[00:03:01] Todd: my, my, my friends call me Todd.

[00:03:06] George B. Thomas: Hi,

[00:03:07] Todd: hurt me. Don't hurt

[00:03:14] Liz Moorehead: Did we scare Todd into submission? There

[00:03:21] Max Cohen: best episode we've ever done.

[00:03:25] George B. Thomas: Uh, and we haven't even gotten the car in drive yet, so.

[00:03:29] Liz Moorehead: All right, guys. All right, hold on. Everyone zip it. Todd, we're actually super glad you are here because we've been trying to get you on this show for a while, but before we dig into the actual topic of substance, gentlemen, that we will be speaking to today, Todd, where are you from? What you do? What you all about, bud?

[00:03:48] Todd: me. I'm, I'm from Pittsburgh. Uh, I do, I do marketing. and, uh, Some may say poorly, so that's, that's a little bit about me.

[00:03:59] Devyn Bellamy: I live in Youngstown. We're not that far apart.

[00:04:02] George B. Thomas: I love it.

[00:04:03] Liz Moorehead: yeah. Have you told Lavender that yet?

[00:04:07] Todd: Hey, I just lean into it. That's, that's my whole thing, you know? Like, if you, if you lean into being bad at something and they still hire you, you, they can't. They can't fault you when, when you

[00:04:19] Max Cohen: Hey, joke's on

[00:04:19] Liz Moorehead: So outstanding, what does Lavender hire you for? What are you, what are you doing now?

[00:04:23] Todd: I'm creating, uh, serialized content, so like, I pitched Lavender on the idea that we were going to build this Netflix style content hub, where we were gonna take everybody internally, and kind of run this playbook that, that me and a buddy of mine, Obed, created, to build everyone internally into their own, little influencer sphere around a series that they created versus like a lot of influencers are just known for, you know, a lot of one off really good, funny, entertaining, educational content.

through my own like content consumption, I realized that I'm terrible at remembering people for their names and what they say, but more about what they do. So like, for instance, if I'm scrolling Tik TOK and like. I'll say like, Hey, have you ever, have you ever seen that guy that does those like green screen zoom videos?

Now I know the guy's name is Frankie LaPena, but like, I only know that because I've referenced his content a million times. So like I could always reference the stuff he's memorable for, not necessarily his name. So I pitched this idea that basically I wanted to create these series that everybody, people could remember them for because I'm so terrible at remembering names, know, I think a lot of people are that way but people can remember a person for the content that they create and I think serializing the content makes it easier to do that.

[00:05:45] Liz Moorehead: That is why I was worried. Yeah, this is going to be a really interesting conversation. and Max, I know you and Todd go back. Do you want to say hi to your friend?

[00:05:54] Max Cohen: Hey buddy. Well, I mean, this is the first time me and Todd actually got to do something together. We've been. We've been like TikTok buddies and Whatsapp buddies and LinkedIn buddies for a long time But we've never actually been able to be in the same live presence with each other. So sir, it's an honor.

[00:06:12] Todd: I feel like that's a lie

[00:06:13] Max Cohen: a lie

[00:06:14] Todd: I, I, I feel,

[00:06:16] Max Cohen: not a f ing lie. You're a f ing liar Todd

[00:06:20] Todd: I, I'm gonna, I, I feel, I feel like you don't, you don't, we were on a live on TikTok

[00:06:26] Max Cohen: did

[00:06:26] Todd: a long time ago and you don't even

[00:06:28] Max Cohen: oh we did do

[00:06:30] Todd: you're, you're way, you think you're better than me.

[00:06:34] Max Cohen: We did do that one. No, cause that was probably like the one of the two LinkedIn lives I've ever done besides when I did it at or not LinkedIn, TikTok lives. So now I feel like an asshole.

[00:06:44] Liz Moorehead: What? You

[00:06:45] George B. Thomas: did you black out during your

[00:06:47] Max Cohen: I might have

[00:06:48] George B. Thomas: you black out?

[00:06:49] Max Cohen: have, I forgot we

[00:06:50] Liz Moorehead: need to go grab

[00:06:51] Max Cohen: did go live together

[00:06:52] Liz Moorehead: drive yourself home.

[00:06:53] Max Cohen: Oh, now I feel like an asshole.

[00:06:55] Liz Moorehead: home, bud.

[00:06:55] Max Cohen: Well, I know we wanted to do more stuff and then we never did.

So, anyway, glad you're here.

[00:07:00] George B. Thomas: I had a brand new tagline too. Hub Heroes podcast bringing buddies together since 2023. Now that's

[00:07:07] Max Cohen: No, I still think we're doing it.

[00:07:09] George B. Thomas: already did something together.

[00:07:10] Max Cohen: still love him, even though I forgot the one TikTok live that we got to do.

[00:07:13] Todd: It was a pretty forgettable live.

[00:07:17] Liz Moorehead: So Todd, are you now calling Max forgettable? Fight, fight, fight, fight.

[00:07:20] Max Cohen: I

[00:07:21] Todd: I mean as a combo, as a combo.

[00:07:25] Liz Moorehead: All right. Well, okay. Flawless segue. Are we ready to talk about what we're supposed to be talking about today, gentlemen? Cause there is a reason why I am so excited to have Todd here. So one of my favorite things about the inbound ecosystem is probably something that others love, but also let's be perfectly honest.

We're marketers and we just love to hate everything and complain about, well, everything. The world. Of inbound and HubSpot and content. What makes it exciting is that it's always changing in terms of what's in, what's out, what works, what doesn't. And that means these conversations that we are having about all of these evergreen topics.

So for example, if we're thinking about like content, email, stuff like that, we're often centering our conversations around the same questions over and over again, year after year. But as time marches on, as we continue to innovate, how we answer those same questions often drastically change, which brings me to my favorite topic today.

We're talking about content. I'm a content nerd. If you have been here before, I'm not only a, a piss poor Wrangler, apparently of hub hero hosts. I am also a content strategist. So I'm very excited because today we are talking about content. So let's think about. The questions we have been answering George for you since 2012 me since 2014, things that we have been discussing between eight and 10 years.

You know, what are the correct answers to questions? Like, how do you define quality content? And what does a great mix of content and media look like today? Because that's really what we have been trying to figure out. Like, make content. Well, how do we know if it's good? How do we know if it's high quality?

How do we know if we're doing the thing that we're supposed to be doing? So that's why Todd, I am so glad you're here because earlier this week, you and I had a really interesting conversation where you were talking about this. Media engine framework that you have been developing and talking about, but the starting point of this framework centers around those evergreen questions, which is talking about what is quality content and how do you decide what content you're going to create?

And what type of content you're going to create? In order to satisfy that. So, we've been kicking around, Do words still matter? Do, like, does video, like, how much does video count? I love that we're already talking about serialized content. I love that we're already talking about these things because These are one dimensional questions that used to have one dimensional answers, and that is simply not the case anymore.

So, that's what we're getting into today, fellas. How do we feel about that?

[00:10:00] George B. Thomas: excited.

[00:10:02] Todd: That's an impressive intro. That's an impressive intro.

[00:10:05] George B. Thomas: I mean, let's, let's be honest. You, you had me like lock, stock and barrel when we actually quit being stupid, uh, children for a minute. And Todd started to talk and he said, serial content. And I was like, shut up class and listen. So I'm ready to rock and roll.

[00:10:22] Liz Moorehead: Let's do it. Alright, so before we dig into what's true today, I actually want to throw this question out to everybody. I want to take a trip in the Wayback Machine and ask you guys, When you think back to your earliest days as content creators, inbounders, how did you define quality content back then?

Other than, well, I'll start. Published. Published. It was done. It was done.

[00:10:45] George B. Thomas: Yeah, well but you got to remember back in the day like that was okay for to be a goal like at the very beginning in 2012 2013 of this like inbound movement, arming the small to medium sized business. This solopreneur with, a way to create content and create a content engine around the larger organizations.

Like just publishing 400 to 600 words actually did something for you. So like you, it's funny, you say it as one word and make it a joke, but like it, it is a valid, valuable moment in time that happened, but, like everything else. It just gets saturated and there gets to be so many people. but I would, but I would say this too, like, cause we're talking about like, what defined quality content.

I think it was this idea of being able to even just be you in the content, to position your, Organization because this really like being a human organization or humics, human centric organization like didn't really start to be talked about or gain steam until we actually had the power to create content in a space where we could actually humanize the brands with what we were doing.

So I think, publishing. Uh, showing up as one's authentic self and understanding that creating that four or five hundred, uh, words, eight hundred words that led to a conversion opportunity, a. k. a. a business conversation, like these are success points at the very beginning.

[00:12:17] Liz Moorehead: pretty

[00:12:17] Todd: I be brutally honest for a moment?

[00:12:19] Liz Moorehead: Yeah. Todd, bring it in.

[00:12:21] Todd: So when I first started creating content, uh, I started doing YouTube in 2011 and the two channels we focused on were YouTube and Facebook and the CEO of my company would We're in a, I was in like a separate building from the rest of the company. So like, because I wasn't, we're owned by like this large manufacturing company.

It's like all the, most of the offices were up in this large building. I was in this small little building with like the mailroom and the executive suite. And I would sit, I would sit in this room by myself, and every single morning the c e o of the company would walk into my office on his way in and he'd be like, Hey, how many views did, how many views did we get on the latest content?

And I'd, I would literally send my YouTube videos to every single person I knew. And every single person in the company and be like, listen, I don't care if you watch this, just click play because I know that man is going to walk into my office tomorrow and ask me how many views this has. So my, my metric at the very beginning was not to say this is good, 100 percent views.

And I still remember he would walk in and I'd, I'd be like, we got a hundred views today. And that was like, that, that was a, that was a, that was a good number back in the day.

[00:13:37] George B. Thomas: Todd, I love that, that you're going into like, like being able to pay attention to vanity metrics. And I'm, I'm envisioning like the, the boss walking by and you're like a hundred views and then you're like, thanks mom for watching it seven times. I appreciate it.

[00:13:53] Todd: it was 100 percent the case though. And again, this wasn't, this was in 2011 too, right? Like YouTube was, I used to get like, isn't that for cat videos? Like, we don't remember that like as a thing now, but like, I used to get that all, that was a, an objection that I had to overcome. So like. A hundred views, like while it sounds ridiculous now, like that was not terrible back then.


[00:14:18] George B. Thomas: Shoot for some companies right now. That's not terrible. Let's be honest. Like, especially if it's the, and by the way, this is, I'm sorry. I know I'm probably not paying attention to the assignment because this is kind of leaning into maybe where we have to get to, but like if it's a hundred of the right views.

Instead of like, 20 of your mom viewing it. Like, now we're starting to get into where we gotta be now. It's like, it doesn't matter if it's a ton of eyeballs, as long as it's the right eyeballs.

[00:14:43] Liz Moorehead: that was the conversation I was actually having with somebody recently, uh, earlier this week about content and how do you measure the success of a piece of content. Well, if it's content piece meant to drive traffic, then yeah, you want to look for higher, higher traffic commensurate with the amount of search volume that a particular term is getting that month.

But if you're talking about a sales enablement piece, that's meant to be used by the sales team and an assignment selling capacity where they're sharing content in advance of a sales call, and it's not a traffic keyword. You're not looking at views as your metric for success. You're looking at how many deals that have closed that that particular piece of content was tied to.

So I think that's always that fascinating metric of. To your point, George, what you said about eyeballs, are they the right eyeballs, but also understanding what is the purpose a piece of content is meant to play. George, you said something that was interesting to me that I was actually kind of surprised, like, you were that early on thinking about humanity, in terms of, like, getting to show up as yourself in a piece of content, but I would say for a lot of people, especially in the B2B space who were just starting out, they weren't necessarily trying to showcase a lot of razzle dazzle personality, they just wanted to be accurate.

Like it was very much like Wikipedia style. This is your Encyclopedia Britannica entry of, this is the information, but we're not going to give you too much because we want to put a hard pitch at the end of the article.

[00:16:04] Devyn Bellamy: Accurate and searchable.

[00:16:06] Liz Moorehead: Yep. Definitely. What do you think?

[00:16:08] Devyn Bellamy: Oh, for me back then,

[00:16:09] Liz Moorehead: quality content?

[00:16:10] Devyn Bellamy: back then it was all about SEO. Back then I wrote for the robots. I mean, I wrote for the people too, uh, and wanted quality content that You know, would resonate for, with whoever I was trying to reach. But, in 2011, all I cared was about gaming the algorithm. And trying to get people to find me.

Like I, I was, uh, just talking to somebody about it, uh, on the YouTube team. Um, here at HubSpot. There is this video that I have, uh, that has 371, 000 views. And it was shot with a potato. And, um, and, and this was like 2000, like 2010. Right? And it was M g K. Uh, it was, it was when M G K had first gotten signed and he had beef with another rapper, uh, named Yellow Wolf.

Wasn't even really beef yellow Wolf. Said something about M G K and M G K, uh, found out about it live on the radio station that I worked at. and there was a guy who was there filming, you know, professionally filming, professionally editing. I was shooting it with my 1P cell phone, not even 1080p, not even HD, just D.

Um, and, um, I got like four times the views he did, just because I gamed the algorithm. and so for me it was a proof of concept, um, as well as a small revenue generator, because that was back when everyone could get monetized and there were no thresholds. but yeah, back then, any content I created, be it video, be it written, All I cared about was, uh, gaming the algorithm and getting numbers just because the robots allow it.

[00:17:48] Liz Moorehead: how'd you define quality content?

[00:17:50] Max Cohen: I mean, I feel like that I didn't really start thinking about content until like 2015 when I was onboarding HubSpot customers and that was like the one thing stopping them from actually being successful or not, And I'm almost like wondering if my thinking is outdated because I'm still very much in the same mindset as I was back then, right?

I think I quickly. Came to realize where it's like, Oh, cool. You could optimize the crap out of this article as much as you want for a search engine, but a searches and search engine isn't buying your product, it really doesn't matter like how much you, you know, uh, go hog wild on the, on the, on the, the SEO side of things.

If, if people find it and it doesn't change their hearts and minds, it doesn't influence them to do something or, or change their mind on something or educate them in any way. Like what's the point, right? So for me, it was always just like, I'll go back to the thing that I always say. And like, I've believed this ever since I started thinking critically about content is that quality means that whatever that person's consuming, whether they're reading it, watching it, read, watch, listen, I don't know, whatever ways you can consume content, if it doesn't help them, you know, overcome some kind of challenge or get closer to, you know, achieving some sort of goal that they have.

Right. Then it's not quality, it's just a waste of time. Now, again, I think people define quality a little bit differently. And, you know, when you think of goals or challenges, sometimes your goal is just to laugh a little bit, right? Sometimes you're, you know, you're, it doesn't have to be like this crazy B2B thing, but like, you know, you go on YouTube or TikTok and you scroll because your goal is to, Break away from the, you know, craziness of your day or, or, or laugh at something or whatever, right?

but you know, I think those same physics applied in the world of, you know, B2B and inbound and all that kind of stuff too, so. I don't know, my chan my thinking on it hasn't like evolved or changed that much. I still think that fundamental stuff is like really, still super important.

[00:19:42] George B. Thomas: Well, here's the thing. I, it doesn't surprise me that that hasn't changed because of the word that you just use at the end. It was fundamental. It's the foundation. It's the philosophy. It's the reason what has changed is the tactics, the strategies, the spaces, the conversations, the length, uh, depth, like all of that has changed.

But because of that underlying mindset that you just listed, like, You shouldn't be like, Well, I, I'm, I'm questioning myself if I'm even No, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no. Foundation is foundation. Like, life principles are life principles. It's how you then apply that to the, the place and space that you're gonna do what you're gonna do.

[00:20:22] Max Cohen: mm hmm. Yeah, I mean the, the people wonder why I spend so much time trying to be like, you know, a HubSpot Twitch streamer type person on LinkedIn or make a bunch of content on TikTok and I think the thing that I've always said that I think is really aligning with what you just said in terms of like the method and the delivery and the, and how you do that content.

It's like Listen, the next generation of B2B buyers are currently growing up on Twitch and TikTok and Snapchat and they're consuming information and finding information and learning about stuff in the ways that you're, you, you didn't, right? Um, and that's where your audience is going to be, you know, even in some of these more boring and traditional, you know, sectors and industries and stuff like that, you know what I mean?

Um, so... Yeah, I mean that's definitely changed. I think it's it's you know, I've kind of gone from like, oh you got to write, you know specific blog posts that solve for a goal or challenge and do this and that and you know got to show up in like the google search to like Saying it's like your buyers are somewhere different now or more and more They're going to be somewhere different and you got to adapt to that

[00:21:24] Liz Moorehead: Well, that moves us really nicely into the next part of our conversation. Todd, why don't you talk to us a little bit about How you see that definition of quality content has evolved, and I know we're about to start digging into the, the specific qualifiers that you use to, to determine whether or not content is quality.

But 1st, can you talk to us about what you've observed is the changes in that definition?

[00:21:44] Todd: So as far as changes, I think, um, there's been this, there's been this mix, right? We've seen it in B2B where like. For the longest time we were creating like what Devin said, like content made for the algorithm, SEO, all of that. And more recently we've seen people kind of, then it evolved into like educational videos and that sort of thing.

And now as we see like Gen Z start to work into like the workforce, you see more entertaining content, that sort of thing. But I don't think there's ever really been something that. It defines how and why all of those things can kind of work together and be successful. So when Obed and I were creating this framework, um, we kind of set out to define like in our books, what, what defines good content, because like you can have a really good SEO blog post and that can be good content and you can have a really good skit.

That can be really good content, but like what kind of brings those things together. So how we define it is at the very base of all content, there should be some sort of insightful substance. Now, as you get more into that. entertaining realm, like it's going to start to play more of a backseat obviously, but like, those are the, the skits that do really well, at least in the B2B space now, like purely entertaining content for like creator, totally different.

But like, when we're talking about like entertaining content for a company, the reason a lot of that stuff hits so hard is because like it resonates so much. Like one of the, one of the most successful skits I ever did was If sales and marketing were a married couple. And the reason that it worked so well is because like, it was based, the insights in that were like all of these things I was poking fun at putting them into this like ridiculous situation kind of brought out how like.

Stupid all these things that all of us do on a daily basis. So like there's an insight at the bottom of it. So like at the base of anything you have the insightful substance right after that. And. It's not like graduating from one to another. This is just like three completely separate types. We say, insightful substance with an interesting format.

So like, think of, and I don't know if these examples will land or not, but like, um, Pape Leia on, Uh, LinkedIn does a series called Do You Even Resonate? That's like, he, he does like this.

[00:24:25] Liz Moorehead: That's an amazing title.

[00:24:27] Todd: Yeah, so like, he, his, his brand does message testing. So he has this like, show around like, how his tool works. And it's entertaining to watch as a format.

I created one with, with my salesperson called Three Minute Sales School. Where he does email rewrites, but we gamify it. So like, we turn that into a game show. And then. Like we use the tool as the judge. So we've taken an, an insightful substance of how to rewrite these emails and we've inserted a format.

So like, it's just more interesting to watch than someone saying like, Hey, I'm going to take this email and here's what I'm going to change here, here, here, here, kind of boring. But like, if we, if we insert this format, now you've got that. It's a little more interesting. And then the third one, same things, but now we incorporate the entertainment.

So, like, for instance, a lot of people know Lavender for Lavender Joe. For people that don't, like, we kind of embodied all of, like, the terrible tactics that salespeople do, like, into this character. And then, like, put him out in the wild, like, on a bench in Toronto and, like, film these skits around him. And again, like, people look at that and they say, like, okay, like, where's the insightful substance?

It's just comedy. But again, same as before, the reason that comedy lands... Is because it's based in the things that salespeople always do. So we're, we're showing you how ridiculous it is by putting it in a different scenario. So like, it's just different ways to make that same message land. And the beauty of all this is I can take the exact same topic and plug it into all these different things and create content around it over and over and over and over again.

And just like nail that message into your head without you getting bored of it. Because I'm, I'm giving you all these different formats.

[00:26:15] Max Cohen: can I ask you a question? Um and i'm trying to think of how to like Frame this up and I think we like kind of hit on this on like an earlier Like one of the past episodes that we did but like what do you think? the like what's the psychological mechanism that humor adds to like educational content that makes it more memorable or seen more positively or I don't know the word I'm looking for.

Um, but it definitely I think like plays a role in enhancing what we would kind of consider the quality of content. Like what is it about humor that just like adds to like the educational stuff that makes it so good.

[00:26:56] Todd: I think this is going to be a super basic answer, but I'm going to try to, I'm going to try to elaborate on it. I think the, the, the thing about making entertaining content or humor is that it's just a hundred times more memorable. So like, so like, like what I, when I was at refine labs and a lot of people didn't even realize like, this was my personal content strategy.

but whenever, whenever we would do, we had a weekly webinar where Chris Walker would do demand gen live and then whatever topics he talked about, like his videos were always very like straight education, talking head, like kind of no nonsense talking like his facts, right? Every week those would become my top and he didn't even know this.

I don't think those would become my topics. To poke fun at from entertainment. So like the goal being, if someone saw him talk about a certain topic, they kind of like understood it and they got the point and then I would come over the backend and create this specific, like super entertaining or try to make super entertaining content about the same thing to make it stick in their mind.

So like the, the combination of. His educational content with my ridiculous content together, I think, was a good combo.

[00:28:15] George B. Thomas: So, so max, I love the question. Um, and I think the question that you're asking is actually less about content and more about humans. And so while Todd was actually answering around the content side, I wanted to do a quick search because I was like, this is a really interesting question that max just asked.

And if you think about work for most of us, Work is stressful, okay? Uh, you're just, you, you've gotta perform. You've got things that you've gotta do. And so, um, one of the first things that you find when you search humor, Uh, in, in the way that you would do, like, for like, how is it good for humans? Um, A, it talks about...

When you're laughing, there's organ stimulation, like a good laugh improves your intake of oxygen rich air. This in turn stimulates the organs such as heart, lungs, muscle. Your brain actually releases endorphins during this time of laughter. It relieves, uh, relieves stress, right? Laughing activates your body's stress response mechanism.

Relief from tension. Laughter also stimulates your rapid blood circulation. Long term benefits boost an immune system. It actually helps with pain relief and positivity. So when you ask, like, how come humor helps us with our educational content, it's because all of this internal stuff that is just programmed to happen when we actually find something funny is now attached to the content that we're actually consuming from an educational level.

That's, that's the

[00:29:44] Max Cohen: Yeah. It's, it's the, the, the thing that I thought was like so interesting, at least what, that, that I saw when I started taking these just goofy ass TikToks and posting them on LinkedIn is that, like, it was, it was such a pattern interrupt for the people that I was, like, posting it for, and I think it's interesting because, you know, it, seeing something unexpected and funny like that, I feel, would often, like, take people out of whatever, uh, Kind of droney work mode that they're in when they see something that's like unexpected Right and get them to pay attention a little bit more and kind of forget what they were doing for a second Devin you also had an interesting take in there too that the dopamine makes it stick I don't know if you wanted to toss in anything on that too

[00:30:27] Liz Moorehead: That my question because I love that we're getting on this science kick here because it, I think we forget like it's all about the humans, right? And humans are biological creatures. So Devin, take it away. Talk to us about that.

[00:30:41] Devyn Bellamy: So, I'm sure I've mentioned it more than once here, but I, I am ADHD and we are, uh, dopamine addicts. And so doing anything, um, my brain wants to shut down completely. Um, whether it's learning, whether it's doing dishes, unless I am enjoying it and getting that dopamine rush from it, uh, it's not going to, uh, work for me.

Um, but also on the, uh, conversely, being ADHD, it means that I'm really good at hyper focusing, um, if there's something that I'm really into. Uh, like, for right now, my, uh, current kick is learning how to program a bot in order to play this cell phone game that's basically like a city building game. And, um, so that, that's the kind of thing that I can spend hours focusing on, uh, and it sticks, but it, it works like that for everyone.

It's just for people like me. It's the only way it works, um, but for, for everyone else, you know, you, you get that, that, ah, you know, that, that good feeling that you get while doom scrolling, um, if, if you can incorporate that, uh, into whatever content you're creating, uh, at that point, it's less, uh, learning by grit and if that, and then it becomes more fun like Sesame Street.

Um, so I, I am always, uh, a fan of, like, incorporating humor, incorporating just silliness, non sequiturs, uh, feel free to break up the monotony of whatever it is that you're saying or doing, uh, just by just sheer silliness. Um, like for instance, if you're watching, Max just breaks out his steering wheel, uh, because he just needs his fidget spinner while we're talking and it's just that kind of, I, I, I know that, uh, Andrew human said he doesn't like the term brain hacking, but I freaking love it because that's exactly what it feels like I'm doing is hacking my own brain.

Just incorporating that methodology and that mindset where Um, I'm not trying to give you information for the sake of giving you information. Um, but I'm going to enrich your life in more than one way. And by, uh, adding, uh, that, uh, that dopamine kick, Um, that, uh, that satisfaction in the video, Um, like if you, for instance, if you're on Instagram or TikTok, and you're watching these reels, Where they're just reading content with the, um, uh, subway surfers behind it.

Or, uh, doing, uh, uh, Minecraft parkour behind it. What they're doing is they're giving you information along with something that's giving you satisfaction. And it's just a really, really simple dopamine hack.

[00:33:28] George B. Thomas: yeah. So, so Devon, I'm so glad that you said all of the things that you just said, but most importantly I'm glad that you brought up a reference around Sesame Street.

[00:33:39] Liz Moorehead: I am too. That makes me so happy.

[00:33:41] George B. Thomas: I have always dreamed about on this podcast being able to go one, one funny video, ah, ah, ah, two, two funny videos, ah, ah, ah. No, but more importantly, before I get kicked off the show, I do want to hit the chat pane.

Uh, by the way, that was The Count. He's one of my favorites from the Sesame Street. I'm just going to throw that out there. But I do have to go to the chat pane before I get kicked off the show because Chris in the chat pane literally says, Uh, when you're having fun, you're more open to new ideas, insights, exploration, et cetera, which is like super dope.

Uh, by the way, thanks for the kind words, kind of like this podcast. And he even leans into, for example, I, I very badly want to multitask with this on meeting this podcast that he's watching. Hashtag impossible.

[00:34:28] Max Cohen: Yeah.

[00:34:29] George B. Thomas: Because, because it's so fun. You have to pay attention.

[00:34:32] Devyn Bellamy: Here's the thing about multitasking with this kind of content. Um, there's two types ADHD. It's one where you're using your brain and one where you're not using your brain. So if you're going to use your brain and listen to something like this. Go do the dishes, go vacuum, go do something where you can put your body on autopilot and then actually save the fun stuff for what you're doing.

And then another thing that will happen is that if you go back and listen to this podcast, not only will you be remembering what's being said and how you felt during the times it was said, you're also going to remember the dish that you were washing during this particular point. You're going to remember where you were on your lawn While you're cutting the grass.

It's so weird, but then conversely, if you're doing something that requires your focus, then turn on what I like to call cartoons for your brain. Just something else that will just shut off the other stuff that just kills the background noise. Cause it's just sitting like, Ooh, pretty sounds low fight. EDM.

Yeah, that's my jam. That movie that I've seen 8 billion times that is basically background noise at this point. Absolutely. Um, but as far as doing two higher function intellectual tasks simultaneously, don't even bother.

[00:35:53] Max Cohen: Liz, Liz, Liz, before, because I know you really want to move us on to this next section. Hold on. Because you, content queen, I can't let you move us on to the next section without hearing your take on this because we've been talking a lot. But I want to hear what you have to say about this.

[00:36:10] Liz Moorehead: anything in particular that you want to hear me say anything particular about?

[00:36:14] Max Cohen: Poetic. Just on the whole like, you know, what we, just the takes we've been giving, I want to hear your, your end of the whole dopamine, humor, all that kind of stuff.

[00:36:22] Liz Moorehead: it's nice that you asked me that because it actually leads into my next question here, because here's where I struggle with this. No, I'm serious

[00:36:29] Max Cohen: alright, alright, alright.

[00:36:30] Liz Moorehead: loving the conversation that we are having right now, and I also know that one of the biggest no nos that I see a lot of content creators make.

Is they try to be funny when it's not natural to

[00:36:43] Max Cohen: Uh huh.

[00:36:44] Liz Moorehead: where they sacrifice authenticity as a human to gamify, to be entertaining, to do things that just don't really make sense for them. And one of the things that I've coached a lot of folks on, whether they're doing video content or whether they're doing written content or whatever type of content that they're doing.

I always tell them not to freak out too much, not to get too caught up in what the Joneses are doing across the street, because how they connect with the humans they're trying to serve may be wildly different than what it is that they're doing. It also may not be in line with what your brand is.

Because the thing that we have to remember is that... Your brand's content and how you show up authentically as humans should be in alignment with the experience that people will have with your brand. So if you are an established financial services company where you may serve an older clientele, or maybe just, maybe you have a lot of compliance hoops that you need to jump through and you need to be a little bit more stayed in your execution.

Your way of showing up as a human is going to be fundamentally different than a B2B SaaS company that gets to have a lot of fun. And it's, but here's the thing. I think those more human moments can also be fun as well. So when I'm hearing this conversation, there's part of me that really loves a lot of what we're talking about.

My concern though, is that we are walking this line of, I love brain hacking. I also have ADD, I'm hearing all of these things and also sometimes I don't want to laugh. Sometimes I'm looking at something that stresses me out because my job is on the line. Something, and maybe I also want to laugh in those moments too, but sometimes the most powerful points of human connectivity are not just because you're helping me release endorphins and dopamine in my brain, it's because you looked through the screen and somehow read my mind and made me feel seen, heard, and understood.

And I don't have to laugh to feel that.

[00:38:40] George B. Thomas: Ooh.

[00:38:41] Max Cohen: Yeah. It's almost like you're saying relatability is the important mechanism and like humor is one of the best ways to deliver it, but it's not always the way to deliver it, too.

[00:38:50] Liz Moorehead: Well, I will also say, though, like, George, you've talked a lot about a talk that you gave a long time ago, where you stood on stage and you opened with, So I'm a high school dropout, and everybody kind of laughed, and you, like, you just stood there and hung on to that silence

[00:39:03] George B. Thomas: yeah. I'm

[00:39:04] Liz Moorehead: and drove it,

[00:39:05] George B. Thomas: really wasn't a joke. Yo, , what was, it wasn't a joke. People.

[00:39:09] Max Cohen: Oh!

[00:39:10] Liz Moorehead: that's the thing. Now, to be fair, I'm also the, I love that you called me the content queen, cause yes, I am royalty. But also like I do teach about the thing that most people run from. So very early on in my speaking and education career, I learned that if people did not like me, they were not going to listen.

But the most powerful moments that people would come up and tell me about my talks were very rarely the shift. They'd be like, yeah, you're funny. But they like, be like, man, when you talked about content managers and relationship managers first, that it's all about the people, the human, like that really resonated and jumped out at me.

So that's where my thinking goes. And C Mex, this is actually what was leading into my next question. Cause Todd, I saw you had nodding. I always love when people agree, but how do you help organizations Square that circle because I know there are, there are people listening to this podcast right now where it's like, well, I don't work at a lavender.

I don't work at a HubSpot. I don't work at a happily and it can feel like screaming into the wind to really try to create content that is educational, that is insightful, that is entertaining, that potentially, oh my God, has a bit of humor or maybe they don't feel like humor is that right path for humanity for them.

So how. Do you encourage folks to lean into that kind of stuff, where maybe it's just not as straight of a path for them?

[00:40:33] Todd: When you say, how do you convince people, um, Elaborate on that a little bit. So like are

[00:40:39] Liz Moorehead: Well, let me rephrase that. Let me redirect the question. What advice would you have for people who are listening to this, who are nodding along with us, saying, but they're going like, man, I would love to be able to do that, and... I'm not sure what the buy in might look like for insightful education and educational entertaining content.

I'm not sure how much people would be interested in gamified content. I'm not sure we have a content production or operations team that would enable us to do these things at scale. So like, what are those micro ways that people can get started? What are the micro conversations that people can start having internally to move the needle in this way?

Because this is where content is going. It's already there.

[00:41:18] Todd: Yeah, I think in order in order to do that Like for instance when I was at refined labs like nobody was creating entertaining content, right? Like no one came to me and said hey, we need you to create an entertaining content. It's a gap that we have I think like if you want to test something A lot of people will, like, try to go out and get either budget or approval to do it, but I think the beauty of where we're at, like, in this, like, content journey we're all on, is, like, you can create your own personal content now, you know?

Like, you don't, you don't need to go and get permission to create personal con uh, to create personal content. So, like, for example, with, with my own entertaining content, I took Chris Walker's stuff, he didn't ask me to do that, And I turned it into skits. And then like one of the things we did at refine labs was we had self report attribution.

So like people would tell us, Hey, I saw Todd's skit. Like, that's why I'm coming here. So like those they're little, little tests that you can run yourself. And then once. Everyone starts seeing it. Like it's also this thing on internal marketing, right? Like if it's not super transparent in your company, you have to be your own best advocate to show people the effect that it's having.

but at that point, like you start running these tests yourself. And once they start working, then in my experience. People start coming to you for help. Like at that point, you don't even need to sell it because you're building in public and like your leadership and your coworkers, they all see that.

And now they come to you asking to help them do the same thing.

[00:42:58] George B. Thomas: Yeah. I, I, Devin, you got something to say, but I wanna follow, I wanna follow up on, on what you wanna throw down here.

[00:43:06] Devyn Bellamy: Oh, me, sure, go, I can do that. Okay, so, the thing is, is that, and my camera died, so, you can't see me. But, the thing is, is that,

[00:43:14] Liz Moorehead: John Cenan.

[00:43:16] Devyn Bellamy: I'm waving my hand in front of my face and everything. With Your own personal brand is your opportunity to not only experiment but to establish yourself as a thought leader in the space.

There is this one guy I know whose name precedes him in every room he goes into. Huge influencer in the partner space. was that all of his content was all always attached to a brand. And so if he would move on from that brand, the content would stay with that brand, and the brand could, and sometimes did, remove that content.

And so everything...

[00:43:58] Liz Moorehead: Ugh.

[00:43:59] Devyn Bellamy: Everything that he would create would no longer exist. But the thing is, is that if you create this content, not only does it allow you to establish a proof of concept and get, uh, buy in, uh, and budget, but it will also be yours that you own, that you can take anywhere with you, and that will be evergreen.

So you can be this established thought leader with historical... Content and relevance to show as an example. Now, three guesses who I'm talking about in the first two don't count.

[00:44:30] George B. Thomas: Yeah. So let me follow up on what you just said. Um, here's the thing. Cause there's a couple of things when Todd was talking, what I hope everybody understands is that we now live in a world where you have the power to create your persona, your person, your brand into anything that you want it to be, whether it be on YouTube, whether it be on LinkedIn, whether it be on tick tock, like you have the power, it just takes it.

Time. It doesn't even really take money to be honest with you. Yeah. A little bit of gear here and there, a little bit of education over here, a dose of this, a dash of that, but you can build yourself into a brand. And when you do that and you're working inside an organization, you can make a brand powerful enough where they can't, but help to have to listen.

They can't, but help to have to plug you into some type of system of content creation in the organization, because they realize how many conversations you'll start now. Devin, to your conversation, what, where my brain went, and I hope that everybody that is working in other organizations doesn't let the excuse of, well, they could shut it off, or they could turn it off, or I might work somewhere else, that, like, that shouldn't be an excuse, you should just be Become a content creation machine, no matter where you're at and build your brand into what it can be.

Understanding it's a stepping stone of where you're going to eventually be at and become, because here's the lesson I've learned along the way. You can erase it from the internet, but you can't erase it from their brain.

[00:46:01] Max Cohen: Mm

[00:46:02] George B. Thomas: And they've watched my content. They've learned from my content. I've already reached their mind, I've already reached their heart, and even if they can't find it on YouTube, they know that it's in there.

[00:46:13] Todd: I'll think about, think about all the,

[00:46:14] Devyn Bellamy: by the way, if you weren't, if you weren't paying attention.

[00:46:18] Liz Moorehead: Todd, what were you gonna say?

[00:46:19] Todd: I was just gonna, I was just going to give an example of that. Not necessarily that this is like company content by any stretch, but like, just think about all of the. Like one hit viral things out there, like even if that, I mean, no one, no one goes out and searches for that content anymore, but we still all remember it, you know, so just kind of, kind of another way to think about

[00:46:41] George B. Thomas: Yeah, I haven't searched for the dancing baby in, like, a decade, but I can still remember it in my brain.

[00:46:47] Devyn Bellamy: Funny. I have in the gift that's out there is not the one that I remember. And so it's, you're exactly right. The original dancing baby gift that I'd I've looked for because I remember that dance. So I've watched that thing hundreds of times in the nineties. It's not the same thing. These, these kids have been cheated.

[00:47:06] Max Cohen: Mm hmm. All right.

[00:47:08] Liz Moorehead: Oh my gosh. Well, okay.

[00:47:10] Todd: in my baby, the baby had way better moves.

[00:47:15] Devyn Bellamy: It was lower resolution and we liked it.

[00:47:18] George B. Thomas: right. 8

[00:47:20] Liz Moorehead: Speaking of lower resolution, Speaking of lower resolution babies, What do we think are the essential mindsets we must possess today to create truly quality content? Don't you like that?

[00:47:31] Devyn Bellamy: Couldn't even

[00:47:32] Liz Moorehead: That's authentic.

[00:47:33] Devyn Bellamy: face.

[00:47:34] Max Cohen: lower lower resolution babies is like the ultimate insult you are a low resolution, baby

[00:47:43] Liz Moorehead: Oh my God, Max. Come

[00:47:45] George B. Thomas: Just, just drive your car and get us somewhere, Max.

[00:47:49] Liz Moorehead: on, old man. All right. No, I actually want to know though, guys, so if we're thinking about the types of mindsets, and we all know we love a good mindset on this episode, right, fellas?

[00:47:58] Max Cohen: a good mindset.

[00:47:59] Liz Moorehead: I, that's right. We love a good mindset. What are the mindsets that inbound practitioners need to possess today that is different from before in order to create quality content? How do we need to be thinking about this now?

[00:48:11] Devyn Bellamy: Well, I think there's one thing that hasn't changed, and it's you need to know what keeps your customers up at night. First and foremost, you need to know... What is bothering these people and what, what, uh, what, what the issues are. Uh, because you can speak all day and you can get excited and nerdy about what excites you.

But if it's not a pro about a problem that they're trying to solve or a problem they're not even aware of, it doesn't matter. The mindset that I like to have is going into it as the salesperson who is not actually trying to sell anything. Just being the old wise man in the room that somebody's like, Hey, I have this problem.

And I'd be like, Oh yes, I remember when I had that problem. Oh, way back when, let me tell you how I solved it. And then just like, you know, go all mentor and sage. Um, in, in my outline and then, you know, just add non sequiturs and just Deadpool references,

[00:49:07] Liz Moorehead: I love it. George, Max, what about you?

[00:49:09] George B. Thomas: What about Todd?

[00:49:11] Liz Moorehead: Top? George? Sir. We're closing on the heavy hitter. He's our anchor. He's to save us from ourselves.

[00:49:16] George B. Thomas: okay, okay, okay. I was trying to be a polite

[00:49:19] Liz Moorehead: Noah, cut that out, please. Just cut it out. Just cut that part out.

[00:49:26] George B. Thomas: Max, you wanna go or you want me to go?

[00:49:27] Max Cohen: Is the mindsets question, right? Um, yeah, I mean, it's for, for me, I, I, you know, I, I, I, I hope I have that, you know, big, long technical spiel about the, you know, thinking about the buyer's journey, right. And, and the dual mindsets and all that crap. And I won't bore anybody with that. Cause that's a, that's another episode we've already done.

But I just think the mindset that you've got to be in is your it's your it's your customer's mindset, right? Like you got to be like what's going through their head, right? What's what's important to them? What are they trying to figure out? you know, be someone who's there to kind of just educate them on stuff versus just to sell a product, but then you also got to be able to like tie that together and say, how is this going to help us down the road eventually to sell some kind of product because that is your job at the end of the day is like a marketer.

that can be a by product of whatever it is that you're doing to like educate folks, you know? Um, so it's just like, I think the mindset is like playing the long game while being an educator and just ensuring that like each piece of content has a job. Uh, in terms of like how it shapes hearts and minds and, and how it educates people and, and, you know, how it ultimately like does have a good downstream benefit on the company in some way, shape, or form.

so I wouldn't want to say that's like one mindset, but, you know, it's just what the mindset you got to get out of is that I'm just creating content that shows how cool our product is. Right. So if there's anything is just get out of that mindset and get into more of an educator one.

[00:50:58] George B. Thomas: Yeah.

[00:50:59] Liz Moorehead: I love that.

[00:50:59] George B. Thomas: So, um, you know, if you're gonna have a batting average, you have to step up to the plate.

[00:51:05] Max Cohen: Hmm.

[00:51:06] George B. Thomas: And so many people go at this, especially, you know, middle to large organizations is like, how can we how can we create a viral hit? How can we hit a home run? and it's less about a home run about being viral.

It's about 1000 at bats that are of value. Right. Just getting, uh, getting on base a thousand times. And so one of the things that I've always fought against, I've never allowed the expectation of anything becoming viral, even to enter my mind in all the content that I've created, I'm simply in the mindset of, I'm going to create this one piece of value, this one piece of value, this one P a thousand times, 2000 times, 4, 000 times, and understand it's that layering of that value over time that makes you the individual.

a potential viral sensation in whatever realm that you might live in, right? That one piece of content wasn't extraordinary. The fact that you showed up for five, 10, 15 years consistently makes you extraordinary. And that's what people remember. That's what people who they want to talk to. That's why they want to be involved in whatever that personal or business brand is that is.

that can do that. So quit chasing, uh, being viral, um, and chase being of value, being of significance, uh, to your audience.

[00:52:25] Liz Moorehead: I love that. Todd.

[00:52:27] Todd: I think mindset overall is kind of what we were talking about before with like defining good content. I think this kind of weaves into that, but I, I want to, I want to kind of piggyback on what Max was saying about, um, like creating product content versus like educational content. Um, I like to talk about this as in, in the form of like product association.

 when I'm, when I'm. In like the ideation stage of any of these series that I'm creating with, with my subject matter experts, I try to figure out how can I associate the product without taking away from the actual content itself and more so than actually taking away, but like, how can I make the product natural?

Into whatever that series is. So like I use three minutes to tell a school a lot as an example, because I think it's one of the better examples that I have of this. Um, but like I said, like he, he does these email rewrites. Okay. So like picture, you know, someone submits an email. He has three minutes to rewrite that email.

And then we have to pick a winner based on that, right? Our tool grades emails, like with AI, that's one of the, it gives emails a score. So, without our tool, that, game that we're playing is just opinion, right? So, like, the tool is a necessity to the format of the show. And without it, it doesn't make any sense.

And the beauty is, like, as people watch and watch and watch and watch, and he continues to win, And like, they see our tool as the score people associate the winning emails with the tool and people that don't even know what the tool is. A lot of, a lot of times, like we'll get DMS that'll say like, Hey, I like your show, but like, what was the tool that you used?

Like that was interesting. What was, so like product association, but in a way that adds to the content instead of take, takes away from it.

[00:54:30] Liz Moorehead: I love that. My answer to this in terms of the mindset is simple is that we've been talking a lot today about, and it goes back to what I was saying before, Max, when you prompted me about this, you know, There, as we start looking toward the diversification of content and the types of content that we can put out there and getting quicker and snappier and more gamified, I think the thing that people need to remember is that there is one evergreen mindset that will never change.

Is that if you aren't creating substantive content and when I say substantive, I mean it's meaty, it's thorough, it's accurate, it's transparent, and it's built 100 percent for the needs of your audience. You're not doing vanity work here. You're not just doing giggles and stuff because it makes you laugh.

Everything you put together is done in service of the humans you are meant to be helping. So the mindset is. Quality. The mindset is actual substance. You could have the funniest videos of all time, but if it's the funniest videos that never address the true problems or questions that your buyers have about what it is that you do or sell or the thing that you specialize in, you're done.

That's it. It's just not going to work. You, it's kind of like when people are like, Oh, I'm going to build stuff. It's for brand awareness. It's different. I'm like, what, do you want them to become aware of your brand? So they ask you to go to brunch. Like why do you want them to be aware of your brands?

[00:55:57] Todd: I mean,

[00:55:58] George B. Thomas: Yeah. I like brunch. I'm, I'm

[00:56:01] Liz Moorehead: I do like brunch.

[00:56:02] George B. Thomas: throw

[00:56:03] Liz Moorehead: I'm from DC. I love brunch. I'm a girl. I love brunch.

[00:56:06] George B. Thomas: know what I really like, though? I really like that we've done this entire episode. And I do feel like if we go back and listen to it again, that Liz has actually said the words HUMANS more than I have this episode. And that was

[00:56:20] Devyn Bellamy: I noticed that

[00:56:22] George B. Thomas: I said HUMANS this entire episode.

[00:56:26] Liz Moorehead: I love it. I'm doing your work, George. You're welcome. And on that note, Todd, thank you so much for joining us on this episode this week. We really appreciate it. We'll have to have you back.

[00:56:36] Max Cohen: Yes

[00:56:37] Todd: I appreciate it as well. It's, it's, uh, perfectly unhinged.

[00:56:42] Liz Moorehead: You're welcome.

[00:56:43] George B. Thomas: There,

[00:56:44] Liz Moorehead: Now, if you along with other people could go to your local finest podcast establishment and leave a review that says perfectly unhinged five stars all the way, we'd

[00:56:55] George B. Thomas: Yes.

[00:56:57] Devyn Bellamy: I

[00:56:57] Todd: a better delightfully.

[00:56:59] George B. Thomas: that. A shirt, yes.

[00:57:01] Liz Moorehead: 100%. I love it. Well, gentlemen, until next week, listeners, also until next week, I have nothing else for you. Goodbye, everyone. 

[00:57:08] Todd: Thank you.

[00:57:09] George B. Thomas: seriously? Like... No, no limerick? No poem?

[00:57:14] Max Cohen: wait, wait, wait, wait, wait, wait, I need, I need to I'm gonna I'm gonna ask chat GPT What I just wrote in the in the thing. Hold on. We're gonna do it.

[00:57:21] George B. Thomas: how are we gonna end with not, no poem or limerick?

[00:57:25] Max Cohen: on. Hold on. I'm getting one together We're gonna make it happen. One second.

[00:57:30] George B. Thomas: mean,

[00:57:31] Liz Moorehead: I

[00:57:31] Todd: it,

[00:57:32] Liz Moorehead: getting server errors.

[00:57:33] Todd: a

[00:57:33] Liz Moorehead: getting server errors.

[00:57:35] George B. Thomas: No, no Todd, it hasn't happened for months and it makes me sad.

[00:57:40] Liz Moorehead: You have been scolding me about poetry. I was scolded. You've cut me off before I've been able to do poetry. Let's not pretend you're suddenly some poetry advocate of mine.

[00:57:49] George B. Thomas: poetry.

[00:57:51] Liz Moorehead: Oh, shut up, George.

[00:57:54] Max Cohen: Hold on. Hold on. Hold on. I'm gonna get chat GPT to give us the poem right now

[00:57:57] Liz Moorehead: Oh, no. Max Poetry, I'm a little bit

[00:57:59] George B. Thomas: I'm a little bit worried because like when you said you were literally talking by the way, and you were laying it like down and you said something about a meteor and then Max leaned over to his mic and I was like, no, Max, no, Max. No, no,

[00:58:14] Max Cohen: I was just gonna

[00:58:15] Liz Moorehead: Drive away.

[00:58:16] Todd: we were all wondering what was coming.

[00:58:18] Max Cohen: Oh

[00:58:18] George B. Thomas: I'm

[00:58:19] Liz Moorehead: No!

[00:58:19] George B. Thomas: don't say anything,

[00:58:20] Max Cohen: Hold on. I'm trying to

[00:58:21] Liz Moorehead: Have you heard about Arby's Big Beef and Cheddar?

[00:58:24] Max Cohen: huh?

[00:58:24] Liz Moorehead: What?

[00:58:25] George B. Thomas: What?

[00:58:27] Max Cohen: alright, hold on. I'm telling ChatGPT, write a poem about a perfectly unhinged human brunch with low resolution babies. Alright, ready?

[00:58:38] Liz Moorehead: Yes.

[00:58:39] George B. Thomas: crazy.

[00:58:40] Todd: unhinged. Use delightfully

[00:58:41] Max Cohen: Okay, alright, alright, alright, with a okay, hold on, uh, about a delightfully... Delightfully... Alright,

[00:58:49] George B. Thomas: Oh,

[00:58:49] Max Cohen: alright, here we go, here we go, here we go, here we

[00:58:51] George B. Thomas: We'll see if this stays in the episode or

[00:58:53] Liz Moorehead: it does.

[00:58:54] Max Cohen: Okay. Ready?

[00:58:56] George B. Thomas: Yeah. Now it's got to be in your like deepest of, you know, passionate poetry voices,

[00:59:02] Max Cohen: hold on. Lemme see what I got. One second. How's, how's the sound? Is this good? Do this,

[00:59:09] George B. Thomas: I mean, are we all sitting in like, uh, uh, where are

[00:59:14] Max Cohen: we're in church ready

[00:59:15] Liz Moorehead: And an olive barbie. Max, read the poetry.

[00:59:18] Max Cohen: amidst a brunch unhinged. We sat with low res babies, a delightful chat. Their pixels danced in laughter's grace in this whimsical, pixelated place. The table adorned with Mitch Ma. Mismatched cheer plates, askew cups without a peer. Delightfully unhinged. We indulged and played in this brunch where norms begin to fade.

Lo Lo babies with their digital grace brought a surreal smile to each face in their blurry world. They found delight as we shared stories in pixelated delight. Our conversation, a kaleidoscope of thought in this brunch where oddness was sought. We babbled and giggled with hearts unbound in this whimsical world we have found.

They're using like the same exact words in everything, anyway. Mimosas sparkled and fractured beams as we dreamed improbable dreams with low resolution babies by our side. We let whimsy and wonder be our guide. The brunch was a canvas beautifully strange a masterpiece in constant change in this pixelated realm We felt alive with delightfully unhinged spirits to thrive last paragraph So here's to the brunch that was wonderfully odd Where pixels and chaos made us applaud in the company of low res babies.

We say let's cherish this moment Come what may

[01:00:51] George B. Thomas: So, so I have to jump in

[01:00:53] Max Cohen: What the f was that dude?

[01:00:55] George B. Thomas: I got, I got, I got to jump in here before I turn this off, because I don't know about anybody else, but I feel like I went from a monastery to a Scottish bar to an episode of like Harry Potter of some

[01:01:09] Todd: was gonna say it was like a Christmas,

[01:01:12] George B. Thomas: I don't know, my, my mind is broke.

The episodes over everybody have a good night. And please

[01:01:19] Liz Moorehead: That was fine. We're doing great. Was that substantive content or low quality? Have you decided?

[01:01:25] Todd: and, and Merry Christmas to all, and to all